Noble Vs Tudei Kava - Megathread

[kasa_balavu]

Is the tudei corruption of good root, more of a Vanuatu thing? As in, is there more noble root grown, and not cut/tainted with tudei, in Fiji and Tonga?

Tudei kava is only grown in Vanuatu, Papua New Guinea, and USA (small quantities of Isa). Fiji doesn't produce enough kava to meet local demand, so imports huge quantities of kava from Vanuatu. A lot of this is Tudei, and some of it is re-exported. For that reason, unless proven otherwise via consistent acetone testing (TK certification), you should assume that all kava from Fiji (and all the above countries) is tainted with Tudei.

Kava arrived in the Solomon Islands from Vanuatu after WWII. I don't know which cultivars were introduced, but you can assume that there is no difference between Vanuatu and Solomon Island kava... there simply hasn't been enough time for natural selection to have changed the cultivars in any significant way. While there has been no official studies of their kava recently, I think it's safe to assume that it is nobel. I recommend having it tested anyway.

That leaves out Tongan and Samoan kava. If you can verify that the kava you purchased came from those countries, it's probably nobel.

I guess the big difference here is that I come from a sociological and agribusiness background. I know what farms in the tropics look like. I know what the logistics of food production look like in Pacific Island nations. Getting a bag of Kava somewhere in the midwest of the US and doing a test is far removed from the process of piling dried Kava root and preparing it for export to a capital city from a remote island, and finally to a port somewhere in the US.

I've worked on these farms, own one (not currently producing kava), and have family and many friends still toiling in those very same Pacific Island small-holder farms. I've also managed a middleman/exporter business (of taro, a crop commonly interplanted with kava in Fiji). I can categorically state that this isn't a problem that couldn't be solved within a few months if the exporters had the will to do so.
If you ask the big exporters, they will tell you just that. There is no incentive for them to stop buying and exporting tudei kava, and that is the only reason it's on the market.

I think people should be able to decide for themselves. If they have a choice between Kava that is labeled Noble and Kava that is labeled Tudei or non-Noble, then they should be able to make that decision.

It's always nice for consumers to have choice. I like choice. But if you care about kava, then you need to put the health of the kava industry ahead of customer choice in this instance. So many people in villages across the Pacific depend on kava to make a living, to put food on the table and to send their kids to school. We must take EVERY PRECAUTION to ensure that the kava market isn't ruined again like it was 13 years ago by the European ban. Your (yes I'm taking this personal, I know) heart seems to be in the right place; you've travelled all the way to Africa to do humanitarian work. You've travelled in the Pacific and know the plight of the people out in the villages. These people deserve better.

Every time you advocate for Tudei kava in the name of "consumer choice", you're not just idly standing by and letting the market decide, you're actually increasing the chance that a whole lot of kids in Vanuatu, in Fiji, and in Tonga aren't going to be able to go to school.

Tudei kava is considered horrible stuff in Fiji. Nobody will drink it intentionally here. People who've been drinking kava their whole lives are sickened by it.

The more adverse affects reports are made in the western world, the worse kava is going to look. The more tudei is on the market, the more adverse affects reports there are going to be. It's simple arithmetic.

The stakes are high, and in the face of that, advocating on the basis of "consumer choice" is ridiculous.

(directed at @Deleted User) The unintended (or intended) consequences of your ideological push range from putting certain vendors out of business

No vendor is going to go out of business because of this unless they refuse to sell nobel kava. If one fears so, let him/her come forward and let us know, I for one might be able to help them out.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

@Deleted User I don't know what I can say again. If anything, I've completely narrowed down my argument to the most basic principles. There is nothing weird about it at all.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Unique for now, perhaps.

 

[rayken]

I really think we need to find some common ground on this issue. One of the things I really can appreciate about this forum is the lack of judging/arguments that is so present in other online communities. With that said I understand that the noble tudei situation has some people on both sides of the argument. However, for the sake of this forum which is a great place for many people, can we stop? Deleted User has done great work supporting the use of noble kava and many people here including myself appreciate it. We have many several known vendors where we can get kava that is indeed noble. Kavasuer may not be on board with only noble kava, but I think we can all at least agree that there are certain parts of the plant that should not be consumed. On the flip side kavaseur I feel that if you want to drink tudei kava and give your honest opinion on it then you have a right to do that. I think maybe leaving out any discussion revolving around the acetonic test or shots at the people who personally believe noble is best would be a good idea. Deleted User I think not making a point to list all the side effects or negatives associated with tudei whenever kavasuer makes a post might be beneficial as well. I believe it is easy for anyone on this forum to see that the preferred kava on the forum is noble and why that is. Kavaseuer perhaps just list when your review is tudei or mixed with tudei, give your opinion on the kava itself and then we can all leave it at that. Sorry for a long post by what I still consider myself as a newer member, but hopefully it can help both sides a little bit.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I also want to talk a bit here about the side effects of Tudei vrs. Noble. I have gotten sick drinking Nobles and Tudeis, and am still not convinced that there is any compelling argument against Tudeis except those that have been constructed to limit our options and increase the value of certain vendors.

I have been sickened by tudei kava when I first tried Isa many years ago, in fact I was drinking it with a group of about 12 kava experts and we all got sick, felt terrible the next day, all I can say is that it was terrible stuff, we never drank it again, none of us.
I have also got sick from Noble kava too. The only difference is that this was my fault, not the noble kava's fault. I drank way too much, the kava was way too strong and I also ate too much after drinking. After I got sick (only about 5 min or so) then I felt fine, no tudei effects the next day or anything like that. If you drink to much noble kava like I did there is a chance you will get sick but the difference is that Noble does not have high levels of FKA,B or C and the sickness you feel is gone in a few short min for the most part.
@Kavasseur when you say you got sick on Noble kava to, it seems like your just trying to blow things out of proportion and your forgetting all the bad things and effects that tudei kava has, when looking at the noble kava it does not have all the bad things and the effects are to a large degree so different than the tudei that it makes you look a bit childish by saying that you get sick on Noble as well as tudei.
I really looks like you are wanting to hurt the kava reputation more than you want to help it.
You have been shown that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows the people of the kava producing nations are on board with the fact that they only want to sell noble kava and they want to keep tudei out of it. Why do they want to do this. It is simple they have acknowledged that the cause for the kava ban was bad kava, that includes kava with aerial parts, makas and tudei kava. Because they now know this they have and are taking steps to make sure that the kava they export is good quality noble kava. This will ensure that there will not be another kava ban. It seems like you want to tell people that Noble is just as bad as tudei because you got sick from Noble too. Was it tested Noble? What variety was it? The facts are Noble kava is the one that over thousands of years the people of Vanuatu made by choice, by choosing the somatic mutations, growing them and then drinking them to see if the effects were better, if they were better then they would keep that and grow it. this is how, over the thousands of years that the Noble kava was born, it was strictly through the efforts of man, so you as a man are ignoring the thousands of years of knowledge and saying that tudei is good to drink, even saying that the islanders like to drink it. I can provide evidence that they do not drink it, but we only have your word and that word only goes against what scientist and anthropologists have known about what the islanders drink and when it all started. It is clear that your knowledge about kava is mostly from what you drink and a bit of what you hear and maybe a bit of actual experience of being on a island in the south pacific. The evidence that we have is clearly more vast and extensive.
I do not mind of you drink tudei and I do not mind if others drink it. But you need to realize that there are reasons that people do not drink it, true we may not have all the evidence to say this causes this or this does not cause this but we know enough to say with out a doubt that Noble is the best choice and tudei will only cause problems for kava in general and possible lead to another ban.
So go ahead and drink your tudei but do not challenge Noble kava as being like tudei because it is not and I will also fight that point till the bitter end, I want to see kava stay legal and I do not want to see another kava ban. Expand your mind, have you not been reading what people have been saying. I know you asked that about some of your statements, the reason it seems like nobody reads your statements is because it is clear you do not read or understand the evidence presented, you just want to cause problems and try your hardest to say tudei is fine when scientists all over the world say there is a very strong chance that it is not yet the scientists on the other hand actually say that the noble kava is safe.
Also the pacific Island people say that the tudei kava is bad and that the noble is good. Yet you still want to go against all that evidence. As I have said, go and drink your tudie kava and leave noble kava out of this. If this thread was for tudei lovers then why even mention noble?

Chris

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I acknowledge that we have the categories "Tudei" and "Noble." I also acknowledge that "Tudei" is more likely to produce unpleasant side effects. I make decisions about what to drink on a weekday based on whether it is a "Tudei" or "Noble" Kava. However, I have had experience with both "Noble" and "Tudei" that have been commonly blamed only on "Tudei" Kavas. I believe it is important for Kava drinkers to be aware of the different kind of effects they might experience with a "Noble" or a "Tudei."

However, I enjoy drinking "Tudei" Kava and have had some of my best Kava experiences drinking it. I don't want that right to be taken away. I started this thread specifically to celebrate "Tudei" Kava.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I have had experience with both "Noble" and "Tudei" that have been commonly blamed only on "Tudei" Kavas. I believe it is important for Kava drinkers to be aware of the different kind of effects they might experience with a "Noble" or a "Tudei."

The point is, the bad effects from tudei are not like any possible bad effects that one MIGHT get from Noble. As I said, when I get sick from the noble I drank it was my fault, I drank too much and I made it too strong and I ate too much after drinking. So I felt uneasy in the stomach and then I threw up and then all was good, I felt fine and the next day was great. I have been told of others having experiences like mind and they also admit it was there fault from drinking too much and other things.
When you look at the side effects of tudei you will see the nausea and the vomiting and lethargy and a hang over effect for two days or more.
The effects are like night and day, it is not good or right or even accurate for you to put the noble kava in the same boat as the tudei. This is showing you do not care about kava. Your continued fight shows you do not care about kava, your lack of a wide open mind and a wide prospective shows you do not care about kava. Your posts show that you only care about tudei and your ability to get it, even though it is against the law in the pacific countries and soon to be the world and this has been done strictly for the good of the people drinking the kava and also for the good of KAVA. So don;t try to fool people into thinking they will get the same bad effects with noble as they would get from tudei.

Chris

 

[violet]

I feel like more people would be comfortable sharing their opinions if this was a safe place for all kava lovers to be able to do so without having to fear the possibility of being attacked for what they personally believe in. The tudei issue has become more hot button than ever and instead of exchanging a bit of constructive criticism and agreeing to disagree, arguments have taken on a religious fervor in intensity while both escalating and denigrating. It is most unfortunate that the majority of topics related to the noble/tudei issue seems to end up in an unending argument when someone has a difference of opinion.

 

[kasa_balavu]

However, I have had experience with both "Noble" and "Tudei" that have been commonly blamed only on "Tudei" Kavas.

Could you tell us which nobel kava had tudei affects? Was the kava certified nobel via 3rd party testing? Is it possible that you had tudei affects because you were actually drinking tudei kava?

I believe it is important for Kava drinkers to be aware of the different kind of effects they might experience with a "Noble" or a "Tudei."

Can you accept that this awareness isn't of much value if the drinker doesn't even know what they're drinking? That people who want to avoid tudei kava might inadvertently drink some if the kava isn't correctly labelled?

If so, would you be willing to come out publicly (via your popular review platform) against vendors who adulterate their nobel kava with tudei, or who sell pure tudei under a different name?

However, I enjoy drinking "Tudei" Kava and have had some of my best Kava experiences drinking it. I don't want that right to be taken away. I started this thread specifically to celebrate "Tudei" Kava.

You don't have a right to drink kava. There is no such right. Kava is a gift to the world from the people of the Pacific.

By way of thanks, you're leading the charge for Tudei, the export of which is banned by the Pacific Island nation from which it originates. You threaten the livelihoods of the people who live there with your advocacy. I don't understand you. Why oh why would someone who loves kava do so much to advocate for the continued trade and consumption of tudei kava? Forgive me if this is an unjust attack, but in trying to wrap my head around what you're doing, the only conclusion I could arrive at is that you're protecting the advertisers on your website. I just can't come to any other conclusion.

When the kava ban was imposed, we (actually my parents) had around 60 acres of kava in the ground. Prices dropped 50% overnight. We couldn't sell the stuff. We harvested it and couldn't get rid of it. At one point there was over a tonne of dried kava on our front porch with nobody to sell it to. Eventually my dad put it all on a boat (he owned a small fishing vessel) and travelled around the Lau group of islands (small coral islands that can barely grow kava) and sold his kava to the little shops on these islands. He got a better price there than any middleman/exporter would pay. Prices didn't recover for almost a decade and my parents never put another stick of kava in the ground after that.

See pic I took on our farm a few years ago. Taro everywhere, no kava. The kava ban for you.

My family was relatively well-off, and we were in much much better shape than all the farmers in the villages who didn't have much else going for them.

I plead with vendors and lovers of tudei kava, and in particular @Kavasseur . Please find a nobel alternative. There are real-world consequences to the choices you're making.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I think Kasa_balavu said it very well. there might be some, like kavasseur that just can not understand why there are those like me that are so dedicated to stop the tudei from being used in the kava market. The market is what people get there kava from, if this kava is bad then there is a good chance there will be another kava ban in the future. We know for a fact that tudei kava was part of the problem that lead to the health problems that led to the ban of kava. You got a first hand report from Kasa_Balavu about how it hurt his family. Well here is some more, here in Hawaii it totally decimated the thriving kava industry, I personally know of over 15 different kava farms here in Hawaii that shut down because of the kava ban. I know for a fact that here in Hawaii we use to get $10 per pound for fresh kava root, sold by the ton. After the kava ban the price went to $1 or less. Right now there is a shortage of kava cuttings if anyone were wanting to start a medium to large kava farm, this is because there are just a few people that are growing kava and even then they do not grow that much.
Because the ban has been lifted there is a renewed interest in large kava farms here in Hawaii, this is how I know of the supply of cuttings.
I do not wish to see a new kava ban just because of tudei or adulterated kava, I know that there are many others, way more than those who would like to keep tudei growing so they can try to sneak it in with noble kava so they do not break the law, many that would like to see a good product that they can offer to the world. This is why these nations are making rules and guidelines to follow so they can ensure that there is only quality kava so that the kava industry does not get a ban imposed again. Every kava producing nation was affected in such a large and negative way that this is where those of us who truly know and have experienced what the kava ban did, we just cant wrap our minds around the fact that you promote tudei kava to the point of not caring that it has a great potential of hurting the kava industry that supplies the kava you say you love so much. All of this is the point of it all, when you boil it down it comes down to the fact that we are talking about the kava industry and keeping available to us all. Everyone got great benefits from kava, depending on where it came from and the variety they could experience relief from all that kava is known for, without tudei kava. Then the kava boom started and some people who wanted to make money fast decided to use plants and plant parts that were NEVER used for a drinking kava, this and some bad extraction methods is what caused all of the problems and then the Kava Ban. Now we know our mistake and we are trying to fix it, if not we risk another kava ban. We want it back the way it was, you will see that the kava back then is just as good as any tudei you have had, grown the right way, they did it then they are going to do it again.
Samoa and Tonga have made incredible advancement in this area and are leading the way along with Hawaii. The rest of the kava producing nations are following suit.
If the kava boom never happened there is a good chance you would have never tried tudei kava. Now you know why we are so passionate for 100% pure Noble kava and 100% correct labeling. Aloha.

Chris

 

[YogaNatureLvr]

Let me give my personal kava history, since it's so recent and might be illustrative of how people may come to kava.

I first tried kava last summer on a whim. I was on the Big Island and thought it would be fun to try. I had my first bowl of some not terribly strong Vanuatan at a flower shop and kava bar near Captain Cook, south of Kailua Kona. I wanted a second bowl but didn't want to look like a lush. I felt mellow for an hour or so.

Then when I went to the east side of the Island, there was a funky kava bar in the funky town of Pahoa. I downed a few shells on a couple of nights, while the proprietor told me that there were UFOs in the area. I actually started believing on the second night that I was going to be abducted by aliens. Probably shouldn't have mixed the kava with pakalolo that night.

I got home and decided to try making kava on my own. So where to start? Like so many others, Amazon.com! I tried the Wakacon Fiji Waka because it was the cheapest. But I read all the reviews on Amazon, one of which led me to the @Kavasseur site. At that point, I began sampling the strongest and best kavas @Kavasseur recommended. I knew from the @Kavasseur site that the Tudei kavas might be stronger and longer lasting, but I didn't know that they might have adverse health effects.

So here in order are the different kavas I tried at that stage, along with my physical reactions afterwards:

Wakacon Fiji waka: slight headache, serious GI issues, some lethargy the next day
KBR Fiji waka: similar to above, fewer GI issues
KBR Isa/Tudei: splitting headache that woke me up in the middle of the night. One of the worst headaches I've ever had. It was impossible to sleep. Nausea, dry mouth, lethargy, dermopathy, an achy feeling like having a cold. Absolutely awful reaction.
NAH Stone: sleeplessness, a feeling of being edgy and not quite right. No real physical issues that I recall, so maybe it was just the chemotype that didn't agree with me.
NAH Wow: no problems.

Up to this point, kava was a mixed bag for me. I liked how it could be calming and control anxiety without the toxicity of alcohol. But I really didn't like the headaches, GI problems and next-day lethargy. If I had started with the Tudei/Isa, the effects were so horrIble that I never would have tried kava again.

Then I discovered the kava forums. I quickly learned that there are potential side effects from Tudei, and that some vendors may sell kava that contains Tudei without labeling it as such. Looking at my list above, it was clear that my problems were correlated to the amount of Tudei in the blend.

I then began buying only noble kavas from true kava certified vendors, and I have never looked back. I have had no problems with these certified kava vendors' products. No headaches, no GI problems, and only a little lethargy and lack of motivation if I overdo it.

Once I tried five or six certified noble kavas, I went back to try the KBR Isa/Tudei once again, as an experiment. I made three shells but could barely finish one. I had another nasty headache, dry mouth and dermopathy. I ultimately threw it away, because I didn't want to give it away and have someone experience the same symptoms.

So my view, @Kavasseur, is that if you continue to popularize Tudei without warning people of the side effects, you may end up turning newbies like myself away from kava.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

The Kava ban had nothing to do with Tudei. Period. We all know that. So cut the bullshit.

My reviews of Kava are my impressions - that's all. I try them, rate them, and give my opinion(s).

As for me being paid by advertisers, I wish that was the case! The only perk I get from Kavasseur is unsolicited Kava samples. When someone doesn't volunteer to send me a sample, I typically order their Kava. With GHK, I have gotten bad vibes from the owner and will probably never review their Kava.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

The Kava ban had nothing to do with Tudei. Period. We all know that. So cut the bullshit.

No, you are wrong, this is not BS it is true and a known fact. I can provide the information that supports my claim can you provide the evidence that supports your claim as this being BS? The fact that the Vanuatu kava act makes it against the law shows also how it can be bad for the kava market. Do you even know that they have found out what it was that caused the problem. Did you read the report? Did you see the study and the findings. It was admitted as evidence to the court in Germany and this was one of the main reasons the ban was lifted and certain standards were put into place so that this would not happen again. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[HeadHodge]

No, you are wrong, this is not BS it is true and a known fact. I can provide the information that supports my claim can you provide the evidence that supports your claim as this being BS? The fact that the Vanuatu kava act makes it against the law shows also how it can be bad for the kava market. Do you even know that they have found out what it was that caused the problem. Did you read the report? Did you see the study and the findings. It was admitted as evidence to the court in Germany and this was one of the main reasons the ban was lifted and certain standards were put into place so that this would not happen again. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

Yea, do your research dammit.