Noble Vs Tudei Kava - Megathread

[Kojo Douglas]

I'd honestly never considered this possibility, but looking at Doug's site it doesn't seem too likely. There's two vendors advertised there, one is a dead link to BKH, and the other is PK - and I trust Adil completely.

I do think there is something that @Kavasseur should consider, though: If any other member had made the statements that he has made, they would have been banned long ago. He's riding purely on his reputation here, and it's getting more and more tarnished with each post he makes.

I think that's what you want, right? Anyway, I'm tired of your bullying. I'm going to go and play with nicer kids.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I'd honestly never considered this possibility, but looking at Doug's site it doesn't seem too likely. There's two vendors advertised there, one is a dead link to BKH, and the other is PK - and I trust Adil completely.

There are three, with the third being Vanuatu Kava House. These aren't images he just took off the vendors websites. They're images created by the vendors specifically for advertising. The link is dead because BHK recently rejigged their website to move the store out of the subdomain.

the other is PK - and I trust Adil completely.

I don't see what this would have to do with his trustworthiness, unless you've asked him and he said he's never paid @Kavasseur for advertising in cash or kava. Have you?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Adil or anyone else paying for advertising on that website or any other. I certainly wouldn't take them placing an add there as an endorsement of tudei kava or of @Kavasseur by the vendors. It's business, you advertise wherever you think you can find a significant number of your target audience.

What would be unethical though, is if money, kava or favours were exchanged without @Kavasseur providing a disclaimer in all his videos. eg:
"I don't like this kava. Disclaimer: I have a relationship with the vendor of a competing product"
"BKH Koniak kava is the best kava there is, and i think tudei is great. Disclaimer: I have a relationship with this vendor"
"This kava tastes great but was too mild for my tastes. Disclaimer: I have a relationship with this vendor"

Frankly I find it bad enough that he doesn't mention when the kava is gifted to him by vendors.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I don't get paid to do Kava reviews or to put up banners.

I sometimes get sent Kava to review for vendors. This is a standard procedure on review websites and is not a conflict of interest. I have given negative reviews to Kava samples.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I don't get paid to do Kava reviews or to put up banners.

Thanks for clarifying your position on that.
FYI, I wouldn't consider it an issue if you were paid for either of those things. Under the assumption that you were being paid (in cash or kava), my problem was that you weren't disclosing this to your viewers.

I sometimes get sent Kava to review for vendors

That is payment. In exchange for kava, there is an expectation that you will dedicate time to reviewing it on your website. You get paid in kava for reviews.
I should reiterate that there is no problem with this.

This is a standard procedure on review websites

That is true. But what separates ethical review sites from dodgy ones is responsible disclosure. I will reiterate that receiving payment in cash or kind isn't a problem.
I watched (or maybe read) in a recent video/post of yours that you had ordered a batch of kava. I took it to mean that you were paying for this kava. That's good to know as a follower of your reviews. I think it's very relevant, because it affects the amount of stock I'll put in that particular review.

You revealed in a post here around a week ago that you held the view that *all* scientific enquiry had an element of bias in it. Now let me ask you this...
Consider a scientific study of the effects of smoking fully funded by the tobacco lobby. The scientist would receive no monetary gain personally other than having his study funded. The scientist isn't paid to conduct the study. The scientist isn't pressured by the sponsors one way or the other (but you as a laymen reading the study don't know this) How much stock would you place in the result of this study? Would knowing who funded the study colour your opinion of the study? Do you think that disclosing the sponsors of the study is important?

I think it would be nice of you to mention in all future reviews whether you paid for the kava.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Thanks for the tips. I don't really feel a need to respond to all of this. If you don't like my reviews, don't watch them!

 

[kasa_balavu]

Thanks for the tips. I don't really feel a need to respond to all of this. If you don't like my reviews, don't watch them!

I used to enjoy watching your reviews. But then you started actively pushing the tudei kava agenda. So I no longer enjoy them, but I won't be missing any. We won't save the kava industry by ignoring the actions of those whose selfish promotion of an illegally exported product in the name of "consumer choice" threaten to destroy it.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I don't have a "Tudei Kava agenda."

 

[Paradise Kava]

I have never gotten involved in the ISA debate.
Seems it's time to speak my mind so you see and understand my world view on this matter.

So on May 10, 2011 our question to the Kava world was:
"We want to ask you, the Kava community, if we should sell ISA on our website. Here is our reason for not carrying it, you tell us if we should OR should not do it. Problem is that ISA makes you sick the night of drinking it (if you consume a lot) and leaves you sluggish for days afterwards. It causes nausea because of the abundance of double bonded kavalactones present in the intensely dark and peppery varieties of Papua New Guinea. These are called Di-Hydro kavalctones (DHK, DHM, DMY) We do not drink this variety, and our ISA is some of the world’s best kava for those who like it’s punishment.
Should we carry it? Please email us at [email protected] with “Yes, Carry ISA” or NO Thanks, keep your Nausea” in the subject line. The most votes will be considered, and we make no promises. We may still end up not selling any."

On January 21, 2013: Adil says
"I say, ISA is never going to be my first choice... If you must inundate your system with these persistent double bonded kavalactone kava root, try a small bag of our 9 year old ISA."

As you know, we ended up carrying it and I have witnessed (WITNESSED - did not read someplace) others benefit from the MEDICINAL BENEFITS OF TUDEI KAVA.

...at first I went "wow, you have a cast iron stomach ISA lover client of ours. Hats off" and I'd make jokes about calling it puke, and other small minded insults made by one who cannot seem to bond with this powerful tudei root.

Later, in due time, I realized that those clients with nervous disorders or acute pain, or just a big dude's capacity to guzzle hard core Tudei, REPEATEDLY came back to us, swearing it worked better than Noble.

I've even witnessed a prominent west coast Kava Bar owner give his beloved girlfriend a shell of Isa at his bar one late afternoon because she had a headache. It was soon relieved, and we smiled at this entire Isa controversy in his bar that day.

I know there's emails someplace verifying clients who were upset when we STOPPED carrying ISA.

We stopped carrying ISA because there is much else to carry, no other reason. Still love to carry a tiny amount which only helps a small segment, BECAUSE I KNOW FIRST HAND THEY RELY ON IT.

Please Notice something simple and basic that we are giving people their RIGHT to choose, because that's sanity.

Let's label it correctly, and leave it be. Let the thing rest ...everyone. Let people choose what they love, trust them once an honestly labelled Kava product is presented to them.

For the sake of Kava, peace and good vibe, I PROPOSE:

Can we agree to LABEL clearly and leave people be to make their minds on ISA?

There's a CLEAR market for ISA even though they do not speak up here (there's very few of these people guys, but they exist!! I know for sure)



REPEATING - again in 2015 what I said in 2011 -

"if you must inundate your system with these persistent double bonded kavalactone kava root, try a small bag..."



Written reluctantly, but in peace and harmony, dedicated to the future of a badly bruised industry, which needs ALL THE FRIENDS IT CAN GET,
Adil Ghiasi

PS - Local Legendary Hawaiian music to think this over to:

 

[HeadHodge]

I have never gotten involved in the ISA debate.
Seems it's time to speak my mind so you see and understand my world view on this matter.

I read your post with some of your mint chocolate extract under my tongue.

Thank you for taking the time to come here and give us your thoughts. I would also like to personally give thanks to you for everything you've done for me and kava. My very first experience with kava was with your extracts (I think I purchased your sampler). This was well over two years ago and I'm still a happy consumer of your products to this day.

BULA

 

[Paradise Kava]

Firstly, Mahalo @Deleted User for spending hours on the phone regarding this issue, dude has heart to do all this work, gotta give it to him.

Problem Sequence -

Mis Label content caused by < caused by Adulteration <caused by wrong Identification < caused by codex not in action down in Van (no one is really testing/checking kava leaving ports< caused by too many farmers growing whatever and sellling it to whomever < caused by huge upsurge in local Ni Van consumption and global resuegance< caused by money, they are hustling their roots, growing whatever grows fast (tudei) and selling to whoever buys it fast, buys a lot, and pays a chunk of cash at once preferably.

So far it's self evident right? These are intrinsic facts. Prove otherwise.

Now, I believe if there was infrastructure in the country, housing, water, health, basic amenities, we would get the best damn kava consistently

...because the Ni Vanuatu people would have a good life, the roofs are mended after the usual cyclone, kids are happy and healthy, and the men are happy land diving to challenge their fears (the Force is really with them) and the noble kava crops are growing well without pesticides.

Why would they plant anything else?

My friends, It's desperation, and the usual effect of capitalism upon poor nations. A bigger topic of discussion we can save for later.

What does this mean for us kava drinkers?


Other suppliers may chime in, but it's rare to deal with a Ni Van (local, born and raised) who processes his own root in an acceptable facility. Other vendors will agree, we keep the small producers secret because we know how rare they are.

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava did mention to me how well he cared for his farmer connection down there, and for their well being.

@Kalm with Kava was also discussing with me how his farmer friends are well provided for, incase they need something, anything!

@Kavasseur came up with this idea of doing a multi month recon mission in Vanutau thru an Organization called Oceanic People's Initiative, which would give power, knowledge, funds and a full scale union based co-op pricing structure!

So this would ensure individual farmers are always Safe, knowing full well, that they need not give in to planting isa or desperately selling to so many middle men cropping up, scooping up their hard earned dried kava roots for next to nothing

Let's face it, if we truly knew what it took to get that kava to us from a nation that is struggling with many many basic issues and whose children have basic needs unmet, I think our brains would get blown.

Let's also face it, we prize ourselves on kava roots grown on Their farms and we know kava takes a while to grow so it's not a short 90 day crop, it's a commitment. These growers must love kava roots.

.... and we only bag them, rate them, test them and drink them with pleasure.

AG

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Adil, those are great words! You deserve an honorary PhD in the sociology of Kava!

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Many good points @Paradise Kava.

However, I believe that you go to far when you blame "capitalism" and when you claim that the key problem is "poverty". What is capitalism meant to mean? That kava exports are profit-oriented or that kava plants, farms and distribution networks are privately owned? The opposite of profit is loss, would we want the Vanuatu vendors to be loss-oriented? And if it's about ownership, then do we really think that kava operations should be owned and managed by the Vanuatu government/state?

I feel that the problem is rather simple: Customers want or don't mind tudei and tudei is cheaper to grow. Everything else is detail.

Why would customers want tudei? Some of them are misinformed, others are tricked by dishonest marketing that promotes the idea that tudei is "a connoiseur kava" or "elite kava. Many Westerners see kava as a legal high and obviously want to experience as much "high" as possible. When a particular kava is promoted as "the strongest variety", "effects last for two days!", "be careful with this kava, it's seriously strong!" then naturally many people will be curious to try it. We've seen countless people here who tell us the same story: they started their kava adventure with tudei as they thought it was the best bang for the buck and assumed that it's best to start with "the most effective" varieties before exploring the more "subtle ones". We know this whole marketing is based on total BS. We know that when the islanders talk about "two day effects" they mean two days of bad effects (shits, lethargy, hangover) and not two days of kava euphoria or blissful serenity. We know that tudei isn't really "stronger", it may or may not be "heavier"/more sedating, but we've all had noble kava varieties that are stronger than tudei crap. Yea, we also see a few people who genuinely like tudei (at least short-term), I bet many vendors and farmers pray for these people to never disappear as it really is much easier, faster and cheaper to grow isa/tudei than proper noble.
We also see pasifika diaspora in places like New Zealand. These guys accept whatever kava is offered to them for various financial and cultural reasons. Even when they know about tudei and dislike they still drink it when it is offered to them within their kava circles. Fantastic customers for dodgy producers and vendors as they rarely question the quality and have little "brand loyalty".
In simple terms, as long as people want to buy tudei or don't mind it, farmers will be growing and selling it. And I am not talking just about Vanuatu farmers. We have recently read a report of an American kava farmer who grows and sells Isa..
That's why @Deleted User's work is so important. Only through education can we reduce this demand, at least among the Western kava drinkers.
@kasa_balavu once wrote here that a couple of decades ago the Westerners didn't seem to mind getting kava roots mixed with stems, leaves etc and many Fijians were happy to sell them that crap. Was it because the Fijians were poor or evil? No. Again it was because some people didn't mind getting that crap. The United States produces a lot of tobacco that kills millions of people. The Americans produce and sell it because there is demand for it and not because they are poor or because their farms are privately owned. If anything, the tobacco industry is a good example of the government being in bed with massive corporations.Besides, the Soviet Union and communist Albania also loved their tobacco.

I often hear that shitty kava is a direct result of poverty in the South Pacific. While I do understand that many farmers struggle to make ends meet, I think this is often a convenient excuse. Let's not forget that prior to that 1980s bonanza the same farmers (or their parents) didn't export tudei. Let's not forget that many of the tudei-pushers are not poor farmers in Tanna, but wealthy American businessmen living comfortable lives in places like Florida (e.g.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/news/south-florida-kava-bars-unworried-about-two-day-kava-6452978).

Sure, it would be fantastic if @Kavasseur or anyone else went down to Vanuatu and helped the farmers to reach their markets directly, improve their marketing skills, get access to potential investors/machinery, etc. Great for the farmers, fantastic for kava. But let's not kid ourselves, as long as there are those who only care about price (e.g. the pasifika kava drinkers in NZ) and who don't mind tudei (or who actually want it), there will be people keen to sell and export it.

 

[odys1i]

I take issue with the fact that because I have enjoyed some Tudeis, or Kavas that have been "spiked" with Tudei according to some random samples that have been tested, that my reviews are not to be trusted. The implication is that my experience isn't relevant, and that somehow my reviews are "misleading." There are countless threads on this board where "testers" themselves argue about the relevance of chemotype profiles, color test results, the side effects of non-Noble Kava, and the uncertainty we should attach to the non-Hawaiian Kava supply chain. My reasons for staying away from such assumptions is that 1) most of these developments occurred in my absence, while I was doing humanitarian work in South Sudan, Ethiopia, and Ghana, and 2) because I have yet to hear a cogent argument against Tudei that is based on anything substantial.

The implication is that islanders have "selected" for pure, Noble varieties of Kava over generations and that "Tudeis" have been left in the wild because they are undesirable and thus unhealthy. While this might be based in facts related to Vanuatu Kava culture, and Kavas that spread into Polynesia, I have yet to see any anthropological evidence for this claim. In fact, my own experience in Melanesia leads me to believe that some Tudeis are consumed on a daily basis and that their effects are desirable.

Furthermore, there is no hard evidence that Tudeis are unhealthy. There have been experiences that suggest that they are more likely to cause undesirable side effects than Noble kavas. I have received many emails claiming that Noble kavas also caused hangovers, dehydration, and anxiety. I think much of it comes down to body chemistry and personal preference. The suggestion that "most" Kava sold on the market is Tudei, but not labeled as such, has led to an all-out witch hunt against Kava vendors. Entire lines of Kava have been pulled from the market to satisfy this fringe demand for Kavas that "pass the test."

Now, let me be clear. I am going to do Kava reviews that take the Kava tests into consideration. But I am only going to do it so that I can provide an opinion on what makes these Kavas different, if it all anything, in my actual experience with the Kavas. This is not an endorsement or refutation of the Kava tests. It is simply a way of taking them into consideration and seeing if they translate into anything during my actual Kava experience.

As of now, I have no compelling reason to believe that there is "good Kava" or "bad Kava." I personally think the difference is as relevant as the difference between lager and stout, red wine and white wine, etc.

Waeld Koniak was one of the 1st kavas I ever tried that actually worked and was my favorite for years. When Hawaiians started growing 'Isa' and 'Tuday' I loved that because they were more refined tastewise, but the powerful effects were the same. I think that if unscrupulous producers sell noble kava adulterated with tuday as pure noble kava that is just plain wrong. But there is a place for high quality Isa / Waeld Koniak, and i for one would not like to see it made unavailable.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Yeah, I am actually moving back towards the position quoted above. Namely, that Kava drinkers should have the right to buy the Kava they want and that Noble and Tudei both have a place in the market. I reject the idea that a whole company should be blacklisted because they sell Kava that is clearly labeled as Tudei or Isa.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Waeld Koniak was my favorite for years. When Hawaiians started growing 'Isa' and 'Tuday' I loved that because they were more refined tastewise, but the powerful effects were the same.

1. Fact: you love kava and want to continue to enjoy it.
2. Fact: Given the choice between noble-only kava and no kava at all, you will choose to only have access to noble-kava.
3. Fact: You and @Kavasseur might experience no ill-effects from tudei kava, but many (if not most) people do.
4. Fact: Kava is already on the radar for liver damage (the truth is irrelevant, most bureaucrats only care about being seen to be doing their jobs and will err on the side of prudence).
5. Fact: Governments use Adverse Event Reporting and social media (anecdotes) to inform their decision-making as far as dietary supplement and food safety rulings are concerned.
6. Fact: The export of tudei is banned from it's country of origin because the people of Vanuatu fear that misuse of it could lead to a ban. They don't have much going for them, and any threat to the kava industry is a major threat to the livelihoods to tens of thousands of small farmers, many of whom already live in or on the verge of poverty.

So long as the facts above remain true, it doesn't seem logical to me to support the sale of tudei kava outside of Vanuatu. Your argument is basically that we should be willing to risk hurting so many people just because you want to be able to enjoy a version of kava that is perhaps only a little bit more potent than the best noble kava. Frankly, I find that position to be a selfish one.

Kava drinkers should have the right to buy the Kava they want and that Noble and Tudei both have a place in the market

In an ideal world, that would be nice. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in one where the government can snatch away our rights for what they perceive to be the greater good.
If there was a way we could give tudei kava a different name altogether... perhaps if it was just called tudei rather than tudei kava, and was never called kava by anyone who ever consumed it in the first world, then I'd wholeheartedly support your position. Then when Jane Doe from Missouri tweeted that she's been throwing up for two days and has skull-splitting headaches after drinking tudei, it wouldn't have an effect on the reputation of kava.

I reckon we should go a few years (until 2020?) with noble-only. After the market for kava in the US has grown to volumes high enough that the FDA acknowledges/accepts that it's safe to consume, then we can introduce tudei kava and market it as a different more potent kava with it's own benefits and risks.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I don't see what any of this has to do with the government taking our rights.

On that note, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. No hard feelings. Bula!