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kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
Let's instead separate Koniak from "daily drinking kavas", not "noble", which I'm agreeable to. For me personally. unless it is very small amounts, Koniak is too strong to enjoy daily. My problem with calling any kava that is not "tudei" "noble" is two-fold. First, it implies that there are only two classifications, which is absolutely untrue, even in Vanuatu. Second, the only kava that will ever be described by the people who grow it is as "noble" are a handful of strains from Vanuatu. As the kava expert Ed Johnston wrote on another post on this site: "As for the "Noble-Kava/Flavokawain Debates" I am not convinced that there is anything what-so-ever problematic about Flavokawains
(Unless they have gone through solvent extraction!) ;
There is plenty of research showing flavokawains are good blood thinners and may even be what is helping suppress cancer tumors.
The label- Noble Kavas can be misleading and I agree with Vincent when he says-- other areas of the Pacific have traditionally consumed kavas which are equal to Nobles, just not called Nobles.
I just don't want people to think that the only good kavas have to be legally, Noble Kavas from Vanuatu.
That would be very disrespectful to the multitude of indigenous peoples who (outside of Vanuatu) have their own cultivars they have consumed for a thousand years or more.
--Ed"
"not a daily drinker," I like that. I will use it to describe Koniak in the future.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Johnston quote, I don't think anyone has said that we should only drink noble Vanuatu kavas. It is unfortunate that we don't have objective terminology here, hopefully further research will be done.
 

yepimonfire

Kava Enthusiast
when posed with the idea of 'damaging to the liver' one must ask... are all livers created equally?
The liver is incredibly resilient, however, this isn't booze, Tylenol, or 17aa steroids were talking about (which only STRESS the liver). This is full blown induced cell death. Don't mess with it. Stick to kavas that aren't piper wichmannii.


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perfect, those are the answers i was looking for. and for anyone who might be given the fear from all this FKB discourse, not to worry! It is important information to know. Remember, your liver is a beast and can take a lot of shit that comes from living on this planet with other humans and can regenerate itself - http://www.mayo.edu/research/centers-programs/center-regenerative-medicine/focus-areas/liver-regeneration itself- now of course once it gets to a certain point the liver can't do that, but if you've imbibed with some flavokawains it's not like you're SOL.

From the article-

"The major constituents of ethanolic kava root extract are kavalactones, including kawain, dihydrokawain, methysticin, dihydromethysticin, yangonin, and desmethoxyyangonin."
"also because FKB was >20-fold more abundant than FKC in acetone or ethanol extracts of kava"

Do you think that ethanol extraction has an effect on FKB and the studies? I mean sure its a great solvent for acidic and alkaline constituents used in tinctures but if you're ever looking at extracting essential oils from plants ethanol isn't the best thing to use.

and just to confirm - (I'm not calling you guys out, I just want to make sure I make sense of this in my head) that Ed Johnson is incorrect when he stated - "I am not convinced that there is anything what-so-ever problematic about Flavokawainsv (Unless they have gone through solvent extraction!)"
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
I think we're all in agreement that if it's labeled as two day, or isa the consumer should go easy on it. For added protection it looks like adding a Milk Thistle supplement would be a wise idea as well.
 

yepimonfire

Kava Enthusiast
I think we're all in agreement that if it's labeled as two day, or isa the consumer should go easy on it. For added protection it looks like adding a Milk Thistle supplement would be a wise idea as well.
N acetylcystine would be better. Part if the damage is caused by a large loss of glutathione, nac is the precursor to it. It's used for Tylenol ODs and it works.


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infraredz

BULA!
@Ouroboros Yes, strong nonpolar solvent extracts will contain a higher amount of FKB, but they will also contain a higher percentage of kavalactones too. I have no doubt that solvent extracts might increase the concentration of FKB per unit, but the that doesn't exclude aqueous preparations of tudei/wichmannii from containing FKB. In fact, AFAIK, all kava has some amount of FKB but it appears that FKB occurs in higher concentrations in tudei/wichmannii.

I definitely 2nd yepimonfire's suggestion for the NAC. NAC, SAMe and R-lipoic acid are all *good for the liver* when there is a loss of glutathione.
 
"Traditionally, extraction of these compounds is performed using aqueous solutions, yielding relatively low levels of kavalactones (∼4.6%, Table 1)."
"Modern extraction techniques using organic solvents (e.g., acetone, ethanol) yield significantly higher levels of kavalactones (∼45–55%, Table 1),"
"and dramatically higher levels of lipophilic chalcones in the extract (∼160-fold for FKB, Table 1)"

Total kavalactones by tenfold, and FKB by about one hundred sixty fold. I guess it "might" increase it.

Oh, and don't forget this gem:

In agreement with this in vivo observation, our data (Fig. 1A) showed that indeed kavalactones had no significant effects on the viability of selected liver cell lines. On the other hand, we show here that chalcones, compounds that are dramatically enriched in organic solvent-based extractions (Table 1), were accountable for the observed hepatotoxicity (Fig. 1).

This graph shows how prevalent FKB and FKC are in aqueous extracts (unfortunately measured in mg/g, not sure how this translates to μM) - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/table/T1/

"Again, FKB and FKC induced cell death in L-02 cells, with LD50 values of 32 and 70 μM, respectively (data not shown)"

Can anyone provide me an answer of the average μM of FKB in an aqueous solution of tudei? If aqueous solutions do not contain anywhere near the μM of an LD-50 than why the fear mongering? If they do, then hey, I would agree!! Just show me the money baby and I'm on board. Clearly this study was to show ethanol based extracts (tinctures) increase FKB concentration, in which FKB causes cell death.

Was anyone aware that nicotine has an LD-50 that is higher than even arsenic or cocaine? That doesn't stop people from consuming nicotine, does it? No, because the dosage is at a small enough level not to warrant a concern.

also @infraredz @yepimonfire why didn't either of you answer the question about Ed Johnson's statement?
 

yepimonfire

Kava Enthusiast
As far as how much tudei is safe, I don't know, obviously people drink it and live to tell about it. Personally I just avoid it, I like drinking kava in virtually unlimited amounts knowing other then occasional dry skin, I'm not hurting myself.


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Ed Johnson "I am not convinced that there is anything what-so-ever problematic about Flavokawainsv (Unless they have gone through solvent extraction!)"

Maybe I misunderstood, but it sure has felt from posts not in just this thread but across the site you both are implying to stay away from those cultivars for any type of drinking,

This is full blown induced cell death. Don't mess with it. Stick to kavas that aren't piper wichmannii.
(Liked by infraredz)

I just want to make sure everyone understands the point of the study that tudeis are shown to be more hepatoxic after its gone through solvent extraction, as it increases the FKB content which is shown to murder those in vivo cells. Not that tudeis are dangerous when extracted in water. If someone can find me a study showing that the LD50 of FKB in aqueous solutions is close to that of solvent extraction, I'm in. I think Ed Johnson just might know what he's talking about, just wanted to see if you or infraredz disagreed.
 

infraredz

BULA!
Yes, I disagree. To look at that study and say there is nothing "what-so-ever problematic" about flavokavains is contradicted by the vividly clear results of that study.

We all know that solvent extractions are going to yield a higher concentration of everything as the info that you cited confirms. I don't know if you realize, but you showed data that validates my point which is: just as solvent extractions will yield higher concentrations of lactones and FKB, it will likewise have the inverse effect with substances like water. Yes, FKB is less likely to be extracted with water, but so are kavalactones and we all know that kavalactones are extracted with water or we wouldn't drink kava.

The point on which we disagree is the fact that we don't know the concentration of FKB in aqueous preparations. Therefore, it's one's descision to drink tudei knowing that there will be an unknown amount of this incredibly hepatotoxic substance compared with drinking "noble" kava which doesn't have as high a concentration of FKB. Of course, FKB will be found in all varieties of kava to some degree so I understand your argument. Mine is; why gamble on it? Is it really that worth it? Why not wait until more research is done?

The problem, and the reason for which I err on the side of caution, is that no one has studied the average μM of FKB in an aqueous solution of tudei or "noble". That data isn't available and therefore, I will wait until it is before I drink tudei regularly.


EDIT: I honestly don't have the time or energy to have a debate over this or to even look deeply into your questions. There has been a death in my family and this is just a nice distraction for part of the day. I'm not in the business of fear mongering. That's not my intent.
 
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I think what you're clearly misunderstanding is that 160 is a bigger number than 10, and also multiplication, one hundred sixty fold (FKB) is HUGE when compared to tenfold (kavalactones).
 

infraredz

BULA!
I think what you're clearly misunderstanding is that 160 is a bigger number than 10, and also multiplication, one hundred sixty fold (FKB) is HUGE when compared to tenfold (kavalactones). I guess mathematics is different than chemistry, so I can't fault you for misunderstanding percentage increases, but ethanol increases FKB significantly relative to kavalactones.
My "misunderstanding" is due to watching a loved one waste away and die. Forgive me if I'm preoccupied.

If you really want to have this discussion, just wait until I'm not crying the whole day while I watch my companion slowly die.
 
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