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What do you consider to be "heavy use"?

Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
Quick question, when you read about kava use online you often come across the mention of side effects like dermo or elevated liver enzymes with "heavy use". What does the kava community consider to be heavy use? I have yet to experience dermo and my liver readings are great,
I don't consider my use to be heavy but I do drink kava everyday. Usually 1 tbs. of micro in the morning, 1 or 2 candies through the day and an Aluball prepped with 2 tbs. in the evening. Is that "heavy use"? Probably not...
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
I am guessing I can be considered a heavy drinker, up until recently I was drinking 1 cup of dry root to about 6 cups of water a day, then dermo caught up to me, kicked me in the head. Now I cut that intake in half, some days less & some none at all.
 

kavayo

Kava Enthusiast
I am guessing I can be considered a heavy drinker, up until recently I was drinking 1 cup of dry root to about 6 cups of water a day, then dermo caught up to me, kicked me in the head. Now I cut that intake in half, some days less & some none at all.
How bad was the dermo?
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
It got pretty bad, spread to my face, it then became realty painful. It passed in about a week, but I am extra careful now, if I notice signs of it creeping back, I cut down or stop for a few days, apply generous amounts Amlactin, and so on.
 

Jerome

Kava Lover
I would assume that if you were drinking enough to be considered heavy, it would be detrimental to your life, not beneficial. So if you lacked motivation, couldn't get up to work, didn't take care of yourself or your family, traded your kidney to buy kava etc. That's heavy use.

If you feel your usage actually benefits your life. That's moderation.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
@Sam Handwich it's all relative really, what's heavy to one person might be normal to someone else. Think about the known hard heads here like shakas... 8 tbsps. of whatever kava and then sometimes mixing some more. That sounds heavy to a lot of people but to him it's just daily routine. As @Jerome says above how does it affect you personally? If you get the effects you need with manageable side effects then you're doing fine.
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
That's awesome that you haven't gotten dermo. I use probrably 6 to 8 tbsp throughout the day and my dermo is getting real bad.

Usually I noticed it gets activated by way to much once in absurd but consistent use every other day
 
D

Deleted User01

I hope you guys end up like me. I can get a decent buzz from 1 tablespoon. If 3 tablespoons is a lot and that might be my Friday Dose. So I have never taken enough kava to get dermo. By the way, I supposedly already have mild dermo but Kava has not been it any better or any worse. Just pray that as time goes on you can do with less kava and then you never have to worry about side effects. It pays to be a Kava lightweight.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I hope you guys end up like me. I can get a decent buzz from 1 tablespoon. If 3 tablespoons is a lot and that might be my Friday Dose. So I have never taken enough kava to get dermo. By the way, I supposedly already have mild dermo but Kava has not been it any better or any worse. Just pray that as time goes on you can do with less kava and then you never have to worry about side effects. It pays to be a Kava lightweight.
I've found with some instants that I use regularly that I can use less and still get a nice effect. Only after repeated days of kava usage though, not if I've had a few days off for any reason.
 

Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
I find that my current kava usage has greatly enhanced my life, and I'm not at all worried about it. I just wondered what we all consider heavy use might be? When you read these articles you must wonder if you fall into that category or not. I guess since the side effects haven't shown up I must not :). I do get some side effects like dried out hands and dry itchy eyes (only with Fijian kava). But nothing that I would consider to be dermo. I think I am a lightweight because 1 tbs of micro slammed down has a great effect, I hope I stay that way!
 

Jonathan

All Hail Leon
@Sam Handwich what you're talking about doesn't sound like heavy use. But then, I agree with Edward that it's relative. If it's interfering with anything in your life then it could be considered heavy. For instances, @sɥɐʞɐs is notorious here for needing (or wanting?) more than most people do to get the same effects. Maybe he could weigh in on the discussion of what's heavy and what's not.
 

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
http://bit.ly/kava-census-2015-results

Check on usage for some relative info. 20% of KF users drink daily, unfortunately didn't get a great response on the daily total amount, but seems like 3/4 cup powdered root (or no-prep product equivalent of that) is probably in the minority.

I would consider heavy use to be basically continuing to drink large amounts despite side effects. "heavy" can really only ever be relative to other people though. More importantly is it sustainable for you. I used to drink a lot of kava and it kept me off alcohol which in my book was a net positive, even with lizard skin
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
For me the "heaviness of use" is measured by the effects and not by the amounts of powder consumed. Sometimes I get a bit overwhelmed by kava (especially if I drink quite a bit in a short period of time while being distracted by conversation etc) and then get double vision and start speaking very, very carefully/slowly. I don't feel bad, but when the wave of kava hits me in this way I know I've had a very, very solid amount of kavalactones. :)
One time I had A LOT of fresh kava in Vanuatu and the whole world started spinning. I was lying on my bed and couldn't sleep for a couple of hours. That was definitely "heavy use".
 
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Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
I agree that continuing to consume it despite it having a negative impact on your life would definitely be an indication of a problem. Kava has opened doors for me, not closed them and I am to a point where I feel comfortable with my daily dosage and am just enjoying exploring different stains. I guess if the definition of "heavy use" is decided by negative impact on quality of life or negative side effects then the amount will definitely be different for everyone.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
I'd say getting dermopathy is acquired by heavy usage...however, some people report deromopathy after short periods of use and others get away with heavy consumption without much dermopathy to speak of.
There should also be a distinction between Henry's example of a single experience being heavy and your overall kava drinking being heavy.

In the case of kava, I don't consider 'heavy' drinking to be synonymous with problematic or dangerous. If that's what we're aiming for, then maybe I'd say frequent consumption of amounts that create double vision and world spinning might be problematic...but even then, you wouldn't likely show any negative impact on your health aside from dermo and most likely sluggishness, both of which are harmless and clear up upon cessation.

Also, there's no way to determine an official dose that is the line where it becomes 'too much' or will be a definite cause of dermo. Overall KL% can easily range from 4% to 14%...which will make your standard dose different depending on what you have, using a fine strainer drastically reduces how many kavalactones you ingest and also seems to aid in keeping dermo away longer. A different persons body chemistry may be more prone to dermopathy than another person, and one persons 'mega-dose' might feel like another's average dose.

When you see me talk about drinking 8-12 Tbsp of kava, it doesn't mean I'm several times more affected by it, it's just where my body begins to feel the full effects that many others say they feel at the 3-4 Tbsp level. In fact, it appears that a lot of you can get way more jacked than me, on much less. My 8 is your 4.

When I saw a campaign in Vanuatu trying to reduce over consumption, the poster showed six shells as being too much...I'm not sure what it was based off of, or if it was just an arbitrary amount created by the government or some christian group or something...but in Vanuatu shells can be big and shells can be strong. I've tried to compare my dry powder dosages to what the equivalent would be in Vanuatu nakamals, it's at least within my range of 8-12 Tbsp worth of kavalactones over the course of a few shells...just not as dirty feeling and overall more pleasant and ideal. It can't perfectly be equated, but the closest I can convey would actually be like using a huge amount, maybe 16-20 Tbsp, but running it through a super fine strainer.

Two shells in Vanuatu usually set me up good, quickly. 3 gets me startin' to feel swashy.::rootedgrin:: (sorry I can't define that word). Vanuatu shells get me to a pleasant and notable kava-plane much easier and quicker than almost anything I can muster up at home, most of the time. I'd venture to say there's more or perhaps the same amount of kavalactones in 2 good, big Vanuatu shells, as there is in your entire homemade batch ... if you're a 3-5 Tbsp type of drinker. These guys are drinkin' that strength daily, maybe only a couple shells some nights, and 6 shells another night...and there's plenty of 1.5 liter plastics being filled up to take away...they seem to be gettin' along just fine and happy as ever.

So in general, since there is no real health threat involved with kava, I think it's up for the person to decide where their personal heavy-usage line is at..after they've experienced kavas common side-effects. If you've never experienced any negatives, then you haven't even come close to heavy consumption.
::chugger::
 
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Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
If you feel like you're drinking too much Kava, then you're probably drinking too much Kava. I feel like a Kava session kind of has a life of its own. Sometimes I'll sit down and drink four shells of Kava, other times I'll prep twice and drink eight or nine shells over an afternoon. Sometimes I won't drink any. It all comes down to knowing your body. It's not like alcohol or MJ, where it's extremely easy and even incentivized to "overdo" it.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
Re single experience: One tricky thing about kava is that there is a clear delay between drinking shells and experiencing the effects. Some kavalactones take a long time to really start acting. According to Dr Lebot "The research established that kavain and dihydrokavain attain their maximal brain concentration within five minutes, whereas the other two compounds enter the brain more slowly and achieve lower peak concentrations.". Plus we've got all other intervening variables such as the amount of food in the stomach, the number of shells per hour, etc.
Last night I had 2-3 shells of a fairly strong kava and yet didn't feel overwhelmed or even strongly affected. Just chilled and yet alert (probably a good way summarize kava to those unfamiliar with its effects). I went to prepare some food and while I was eating it (30 minutes after my last shell) I was suddenly hit by a big wave of kava effects.
 
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