Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Looks we all need to get our systems, classifications, and intentions in order 
Perplexed by Tudei Controversy
- Thread starter Delicate Drunk
- Start date
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
I'm a living kava guinea pig (for how much longer only the shadow knows
) I have tried real tudei and it has indeed made me nausea with ill effects. So naturally I'm not interested in a product with those type of effects and therefore choose not to consume it. On the other hand I have personally used 11-year waka for over six months now and I have never once experienced any of the symptons or effects I had with the tudei. In fact I highly recommend to others this product for a great day time kava. The only problem I have with it, is that it seems to bring on dermo faster than other products.So giving (according to your tests) it's a non-noble kava means to me that either your testing methodology is flawed in some way. Or the industry is incapable of analyzing and reporting the true characteristics of a kava product that are needed to truly understand how benificial or harmful the product actually is. And just in case you don't get my meaning, I'm talking specifically about reporting the type and amount of chemical compounds that are in a product that are 'known' to have harmful or potentially unsafe qualities. If you believe that flavo's are the evil in kava then that's what I think you should be testing and reporting on.
I believe the service you provide is of great value and I thank you very much for your efforts. But I also believe that truly understanding kava is still in it's infancy and I recommend that no one rushes to judgement about any type of kava without lots more study.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have enjoyed our lively little discussion and have now gotten the feedback I was looking for in my Skunkworks project. I have a good feel now for the direction of my project. Cheers to you as well.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Sounds great to me actually. Because the key element in 'my' system involved personal choice.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
plus I see no other data about 11-year waka other than you report it to test orange. I see no other FK numbers or anything else other than chemotype.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Why can't you produce any??
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Again why can't you produce the data I'm looking for?
(No matter how stupid this all is, I can do it all day long
)
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
11 Year Waka is such a terrible name. 11 Year roots from what cultivar? Tudei? Isa? Hiwa? Loa Kasa Balavu?
Since 11 Year Waka is thought to be adulterated with tudei, we should always mention it alongside the name of the vendor. That way any future non-adulterated "11 year waka" from a different source isn't tainted by the poor reputation attached to the adulterated batch of kava currently being sold.
Since 11 Year Waka is thought to be adulterated with tudei, we should always mention it alongside the name of the vendor. That way any future non-adulterated "11 year waka" from a different source isn't tainted by the poor reputation attached to the adulterated batch of kava currently being sold.
D
Deleted User01
A couple of things:
Some guys like Headgie have an iron constitution, nothing effects them. Others pass out when they smell Tudei. No Headgie, you are not a good barometer. You're just immune to lots of stuff. That's why you are still alive and kicking like an ornery mule right here in the forums. (And I mean that in a good way.)
I don't believe and nor to the kava scientists believe that chemotypes can determine if Kava has some of the more dangerous substances that Tudei has. So looking at Chemotypes is a no go in my opinion.
@Deleted User, let's focus on the dangerous chemicals. For the record, are your tests and the regular Acetone test good indicators of those chemicals. And how many years has Dr. Lebot and others been working on this? I know this is a fledgling science but Lebot has done many, many years of research and I would think he knows a little something about the topic.
One more thing. Do some of you anti-testing guys believe that Lebot's tests are biased for some reason and are therefore null and void? Do you have testing results and research that goes against his findings? Are there other scientist you know that can repudiate the Acetone Test and its basic assumptions? Or are we back to the "It don't make me sick so it must be Ok" theory. By the way, I'm glad it doesn't effect you. I love shooting the shit with all you guys and I don't want to see anyone "go down".
Some guys like Headgie have an iron constitution, nothing effects them. Others pass out when they smell Tudei. No Headgie, you are not a good barometer. You're just immune to lots of stuff. That's why you are still alive and kicking like an ornery mule right here in the forums. (And I mean that in a good way.
)I don't believe and nor to the kava scientists believe that chemotypes can determine if Kava has some of the more dangerous substances that Tudei has. So looking at Chemotypes is a no go in my opinion.
@Deleted User, let's focus on the dangerous chemicals. For the record, are your tests and the regular Acetone test good indicators of those chemicals. And how many years has Dr. Lebot and others been working on this? I know this is a fledgling science but Lebot has done many, many years of research and I would think he knows a little something about the topic.
One more thing. Do some of you anti-testing guys believe that Lebot's tests are biased for some reason and are therefore null and void? Do you have testing results and research that goes against his findings? Are there other scientist you know that can repudiate the Acetone Test and its basic assumptions? Or are we back to the "It don't make me sick so it must be Ok" theory. By the way, I'm glad it doesn't effect you. I love shooting the shit with all you guys and I don't want to see anyone "go down".
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
I would not call myself an 'anti-tester'. I'm actually all for it. But I disagree that chemotype has no role as being an indicator. I've demonstraed (successfully) in a preious post, that 90+ percent of the products that have tested orange are all bunched up in a single chemo category. I've used your data (that you provided awhile back) and I've used @Deleted User's test results as well. As far as the acetone test goes, I would say it can't really be refuted because there is a lack of information to do so. No one has any idea what even causes the color change let alone produce a coherent analysis of it's correlation to certain compounds. And I see no significant data, to convince me that those certain compounds are present in magnitudes that would produce any significant health effects. So I guess you can say that I'm not a non-believer but rather a skeptic. Possibly even a healthy skeptic.
Back to my chemo theory, I believe that if you have a product that is seriously tainted, spiked, blended, or whatever name you want to call, it will also seriously change it's corresponding chemotype as well. That's why I've said (many times) that ongoing product testing and verification is a very important aspect in ones purchasing and consumption decisions.
Lastly I've never claimed my system to be anything other than an easy to use guideline to use as additional information for your kava decisions.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Looks like I should cautiously - very cautiously - keep an open mind here.
I come from the postmodern school of social sciences, where we acknowledge the inherent bias in all scientific inquiries. Objectivity doesn't exist, and it never well. Everything is deeply anchored in culture.
Nonetheless, I am committed to learning.
I come from the postmodern school of social sciences, where we acknowledge the inherent bias in all scientific inquiries. Objectivity doesn't exist, and it never well. Everything is deeply anchored in culture.
Nonetheless, I am committed to learning.
D
Deleted User01
@HeadHodge, 90 percent is not enough to say the word, "conclusive". It has to be 100 percent. Headgie, why don't we focus on the chemicals that are found predominately in Tudei and how kava can be tested for their presence. I don't believe that chemotypes are perfect plus what if a good chemotype is blended with tudei. What does that do? I know one thing, it puts more dangerous substances in a perfectly good bag of kava.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
I never said it was conclusive I simply said it's a good easy rule of thumb guideline that anyone can use. If you look at all the products in that list you'll see 100% of them have a chemotype, and under 20% have ever been tested with acetone. I'll continue to believe that blending changes the underlying chemotype until someone disproves that.
I believe the acetone test can be useful but I still firmly stand that the chemotype is as well. I truly believe the one product that made @Henry sick was probably mislabled either intentionally or mistakenly. But if he would have tested it, I'm betting he would have discovered the chemotype wasn't what it claimed to be. But since that's a past event, we'll never know.
D
Deleted User01
@HeadHodge, I understand. At a glance, you can look at chemotypes as a quicky rule of thumb (that ain't perfect). But I want to get back to everyone talking about the dangerous chemicals in Tudei. How can we tell if those chemicals are in our kava? Does the Acetone test do that? How about the more sophisticated tests that @Deleted User does? I want us all to be talking about the stuff in Tudei that makes it dangerous to some. I just feel that we are have gotten off the topic here. Let's start another thread and just talk about the chemicals that are good and bad in Kava and how we can avoid the bad stuff. I'll bet you can dig up some good stuff and start the thread yourself. And everyone needs to NOT CONDEMN those that drink Tudei. Both Hedgie and I can attest to the fact that it's better than drinking a jug of moonshine everyday. Yeah, perspective does help.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Well first of all my system is not arbritraty. It's based on solid scientific evidence (by Lebot) that all tudei's have a 5 in the higher digits of the chemotype. I've already posted the exact thing he says from 'The Pacific Elixor'.
And secondly I'm not compaining against anything, I am campaining for providing more information than we currently have to help people make an even more intelligent decisions. You seem to suggest (I'm not accussing), that if Lebot says something, the job is done, wash your hands, and go home for the day and be happy.
Lastly, I'm sick of this tudei controversy, when I have cited Lebot's own words on some of the actual benefits that are derived from tudei, mostly for medicinal use, not in social situations.
I would campaign that you stop solely drinking the Lebot kool-aid and broaden your horizons a bit. Like perhaps, I don't know, making sure there are no high levels of pesticides, cement, or crunchy munchy little crickets in the product.
And secondly I'm not compaining against anything, I am campaining for providing more information than we currently have to help people make an even more intelligent decisions. You seem to suggest (I'm not accussing), that if Lebot says something, the job is done, wash your hands, and go home for the day and be happy.
Lastly, I'm sick of this tudei controversy, when I have cited Lebot's own words on some of the actual benefits that are derived from tudei, mostly for medicinal use, not in social situations.
I would campaign that you stop solely drinking the Lebot kool-aid and broaden your horizons a bit. Like perhaps, I don't know, making sure there are no high levels of pesticides, cement, or crunchy munchy little crickets in the product.