Perplexed by Tudei Controversy

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Lol thanks

 

[HeadHodge]

Well, again, it's not like he used to say "tudei is great" and now he says "tudei is bad"...

I don't think that's totally true. He writes about the social, cerimonial, and medicinal uses of kava. It may not have been popular for social situations it certainly was used for medicianl reasons. Here's what he says (or reports) about the medicinal uses of kava (many of which are tudei kava):

Kava is an important ingredient in the pharmacopoeia of many Pacific Islands societies. Zepernick (1972), for example, recorded numerous medical syndromes treated with kava-based preparations in traditional Polynesia (see also table 4.1). Knowledge and belief about the medicinal efficacy of kava still lead many island healers to prescribe its use to treat a variety of ailments and diseases. Medical science tries to find a logical relation between cause and effect to certify etiologic or symptomatic remedies, whereas traditional Pacific Island medicine seeks the causes of illness (often supernatural, primarily in the breaching of taboo) and then treats diseases with empirically tested folk medicines.

Table 4.1. Kava-based medicinal treatments in Polynesia
Condition

Medicinal treatment

Inflammation of the urogenital system

Drinking macerated stump and young kava shoots

Gonorrhea and chronic cystitis

Drinking prepared kava

Difficulties in urinating

Drinking macerated stump

Female puberty syndromes, weakness

Drinking masticated kava

Menstrual problems, dysmenorrhea

Drinking prepared kava

Vaginal prolapsus

Application of macerated kava

To provoke an abortion

Kava leaves in the vagina

Migraine related to women’s sicknesses

Drinking masticated kava

Headaches

Masticated root tissues, eaten or drunk as an infusion

General weakness Chills

Drinking of masticated, macerated kava diluted with water and boiled

Chills

Drinking macerated kava; fumigation with the leaves

Chills and sleeping problems

Drinking of masticated, macerated kava diluted in water and boiled

General treatment of diseases

Fumigation with the leaves

To prevent infection

Drinking of masticated kava

Rheumatism

Drinking of macerated stump

Weight gain

Drinking of macerated stump

Gastrointestinal upsets

Drinking of macerated stump mixed with other medicinal plants

Irritation of the respiratory tract and asthma

Drinking of macerated stump

Pulmonary pains

Drinking masticated kava

Tuberculosis

Drinking juice extracted from the stump

Leprosy

External application of masticated stump

Skin diseases

Application of masticated stump in a poultice

Certain skin diseases

Kava cure to cause desquamations; at the end of the cure, new healthy skin is formed.

To prevent suppuration

Application of masticated stump in a poultice

To calm nervous children

Drinking of kava drink prepared from the nene variety


* * *

Source: Lebot and Cabalion 1986, after: Aitken 1930; Degener 1945a, 1945b; Handy 1940; Handy, Pukui, and Livermore 1934; Hansel 1968; Hansel, Weiss, and Schmidt 1966; Steinmetz 1960; and Titcomb 1948.

Recent research indicates that the chemical properties of kavalactones in the rootstock of kava and alkaloids in the leaves may explain much of its usefulness in traditional medicine, although not all its applications can be accounted for scientifically (e.g., those for menstrual ailments). For example, the bactericidal or bacteriostatic activity of kavalactones underlies kava’s reputation as a remedy for urogenital infections. Its traditionally perceived analgesic properties make it a common remedy for various aches and pains. Its diuretic effects may relieve symptoms of gonorrhea. Traditional uses of the plant as a contraceptive, abortifacient, or stimulant remain to be scientifically verified and explained, perhaps by research to identify physiologically active compounds other than kavalactones. Some reliance on kava within folk medicinal systems no doubt reflects its symbolic rather than chemical attributes. Use of kava to induce women’s breast milk flow, for example, may relate to the general symbolic appreciation of kava as a fertile fluid (see chapter 5). We summarize some of the traditional medicinal uses of kava by region below.


New Guinea

In Irian Jaya, the internal part of P. methysticum bark is used for toothache (Aufenanger and Höltker 1940). In Papua New Guinea, scraped bark and masticated roots are used to relieve sore throats, and the juice from the leaves is used to treat cuts and is imbibed as a general tonic (Holdsworth 1977). Women drink fresh masticated kava root as an anesthetic when they are being tattooed. Women in some areas of this country also reportedly drink large quantities when they are pregnant, especially just before delivery, to stimulate milk production (Steinmetz 1960).


Vanuatu

The soporific properties of kava have been known in Vanuatu for many generations. Garanger (1972) provides some remarkable evidence of this. Archaeological excavation of the burial site of Roy Mata, a chief who reigned over the Shepherd Islands and Efate in the thirteenth century, uncovered male skeletons in positions suggesting that they were buried alive while in a peaceful state of mind, whereas the position of associated female skeletons suggests they put up a struggle. According to oral tradition, the men interred alive were under the influence of kava but their wives were not allowed the soporific potion.

Today on Mota Lava, in the Banks Islands of Vanuatu, kava is used in a drink to treat constipation. It is also used to treat conjunctivitis: the eyes are washed with water mixed with juice squeezed from the leaves (Vienne 1981).

In Melsisi, on Pentecost, juice expressed from kava leaves is dropped into the ears to treat earache (Lebot, field observations, 1986). A. Walter (personal communication, 1987) noted a similar use of kava in Vansemakul, another Apma-speaking village in the same area. Also on Pentecost, a plaster made from heated and pounded kava leaves is applied to the abdomen to relieve an upset stomach. For feverish coughing, a handful of bark is ground Up in a small amount of water, which the patient drinks in small doses. To relieve sickness characterized by fever followed by asthenia, sufferers drink half a glass of juice extracted from kava leaves. To burst a boil, people grind kava leaves and heat them over fire. The warm leaves are then pressed, and the juice obtained is applied to the boil, which is also covered with the pulverized kava leaves held in place by another leaf. For headaches, hot leaves are placed on the head. A sickness known in the Apma region bears a generic name of kava (sini); symptoms include swollen legs followed by fever. Sini is treated by bathing with a maceration of four leaves from the sini bo cultivar ground in a bowl of water. A poultice made from four sini bo leaves heated in the fire is also applied to swollen legs associated with a similar illness (Lebot and Cabalion 1986).

On Tongoa, to treat general indisposition and lack of energy, juice is extracted from ground kava leaves, mixed in cold water, and applied by massage to the body.

On Erromango, a complex preparation containing kava is reputed to act against both asthma and tuberculosis (see Lebot and Cabalion 1986). The ingredients of the asthma remedy include leaves of a Compositae (Crassocephalum crepidioides), locally referred to as samdoo; a Papilionaceae (Abrus precatorius) called tamsi; two cultivars of a Musaceae (Heliconia indica, var. indicd), mevong and mevong netukus; and kava, called naghave (or nagave according to Lynch 1983). These leaves are pressed and the juice extracted and drunk. The sick person is restricted to a salt-free diet (no sea water) throughout the course of treatment. This medication is not administered to pregnant or menstruating women. On Tanna, however, juice extracted from the leaves of kava and a Cyperaceae species (Fimbristylis cymosa) is given to pregnant women who are approaching their delivery date, “when the baby has to turn round,” to be sure it presents itself favorably for birth.

There are Erromangan tales of a kava syndrome called naghave, attributed to sorcery performed with various leaves. The symptoms of the illness are blurred vision and dizziness resembling those of an overdose of kava (these symptoms could simply result from jaundice). In 1982, two people in the southwest of the island still knew the method of casting this spell. More than ten local plants are used in preparing various remedies for kava sickness. There is also a kava sickness in New Guinea (Astrolabe Bay), referred to as kial (kava). Kial is purported to have a special effect on the backbone; old people who walk with a hunch prematurely are said to have either ringworm or kial sickness (Hagen 1899).


Fiji

In the early part of this century, Rougier (1907) recorded several medicinal uses of kava in Fiji. For example, a sickness characterized by a pain inside the head and both ears associated with “blurred vision” that “sometimes disappears at high tide, and in other cases at sunset,” was treated with various remedies, one of which contained leaves of Ipomoea peltata and kava. Rougier also reported that “the best sedative drug is a draught prepared by scraping and pounding the kava root,” and that “there were various means of contraception, one of which was masticating and swallowing kava leaves.”

According to Degener (1949; see also Zepernick 1972), Fijians also soften kava leaves in a fire and apply these as a poultice against suppurations. Hocart (1929) noted the use of kava in a treatment for “convalescence.” H. B. Parham (1939) reported that kava is considered to be a powerful diaphoretic. Fijian women regard it as a fortifying drink, laxative, and diuretic. In pregnancy, the absorption of small quantities of kava is said to facilitate delivery. In Fiji as in parts of New Guinea, doses of kava are thought to favor the production of milk. The absorption of several cups of kava reportedly helps clear up initial stages of diarrhea (Thomson 1908; Steinmetz 1960; Sterly 1970). On the Polynesian island of Rotuma, which politically is part of Fiji, kava is consumed to control asthma (Manner and Bryant 1988).


Polynesia

In Tahiti, a drink made from masticated kava rootstock was believed to be an effective remedy for gonorrhea (Sterly 1970; Maclet and Barrau 1959; Steinmetz 1960). In the Cook Islands, kava is still consumed to treat urinary tract problems (mimi), probably because of its diuretic action (Whistler 1990). In American Samoa, kava is also used against gonorrhea (MacCuddin 1974). The medicinal potion includes four small kava roots ground together with 12 chili peppers (Capsicum annuum), 24 leaves of a native tree (Colubrina asiatica), and the pith of the sweet orange tree (Citrus sinensis). The extracted juice is administered orally.

Another kava remedy is used in American Samoa to cure a urinary infection, supposedly caused by the spirit of a dead person, the symptoms of which are a distended bladder, a small emission of urine, and painful micturition (the illness probably results from a gonococcus infection, whose origin is generously attributed to the spirits of the dead). Therapy for this malady involves scraping the internal bark of a kava stalk, extracting the juice, mixing it with the juice of a dried Pandanus species root, and adding water to make a concoction that the patient drinks.

Kava is also utilized in the relief of a medical syndrome comprised of ocular pains, difficulty in opening the eyes, and a feeling of having a swollen head, accompanied by a cold sweat, dizziness, and numbing of the legs. Eight kava leaves are ground, placed in a piece of clean cloth, and strained into a glass of water. The mixture is then imbibed by the sick person.

In Samoa, for an injury caused by a fish spine, a dried kava root is burned. A dry coconut shell is placed over the embers, allowing the smoke to escape through the opened “eyes” of the nut, and the injury is exposed to the escaping smoke.


Pohnpei

Islanders here state that kava drinking generally is beneficial to their health. They also use it as a prophylactic against gonorrhea, and one report states that they formerly employed kava as an abortifacient (Riesenberg 1968).

 

[HeadHodge]

...BTW, do you think that scientists cannot expand their knowledge and that whatever they publish first has to be the absolute extension of knowledge on a given subject that they are allowed to express throughout their lives?...

Absolutely, but also don't you think that scientists can be wrong, petty, misguided, or political as well ? As you say scientists are humans too.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Just out of curiousity.... whats your ultimate point here @HeadHodge ?

 

[HeadHodge]

Just out of curiousity.... whats your ultimate point here @HeadHodge ?

Simple, to end the tudei guilt trip (it has it's beneficial uses like any other kava) and to report truthful information for 'all' kava in order to allow people to make an individual intelligent choice about the use of kava and which products they consume. The majority of members here have at one time or another have asked the same question: "What is a good kava to buy"? I want to be able to give everyone a truthful, accurate, answer to that question. That's my goal.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Gotcha thanks

 

[HeadHodge]

Gotcha thanks

I just have to do it my own stupid way. (it's the only way I know)

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Lol me too I just honestly got so confused as to what half the people on here are saying. All I know is I'm thankful for what Deleted User, Dr Lebot, and Chris are doing for Kava. I think the big issue with the kava industry is the same one that all herbs experience.
What happens is the reason tuedi and bad sellers stuff comes up weak is because a shady practice in herbalism is too extract the active and sell it and then sell the plant matter too after.
Happens with cannabis ginger and kava. It's a big issue because you can't tell the difference without testing. So even if tuedi is wanting to be consumed we still need a testing industry to atleast let us know that nothing has been taken from the kava first.

Like with cannabis, a few of you are prolly familiar with how to make hash, you put the plant matter in a tube and send butane through the tube and it grabs all the resin and evaporates and leaves you with the actives. Then people dry out the bud and sell it. More than likely leaving butane in the plant matter... this stuff happens with kava and all other plants and it takes proper testing to know what your getting. That's what everyone here wants.

The reason people are getting defensive is because people are coming on here and passively agressivley calling Deleted User and Lebot conspirators lol. When in reality there's nothing close to that. The fda blows and won't do this for us so someone decdied enough is enough and did it them selves.

 

[Deleted User01]

Bottom line is this, Tudei is not recommended for everyday use. It was used for ceremonial and medicinal purposes if at all by the Islanders. It you like Tudei, and it doesn't make you sick, then go for it. But if you get sick, don't go telling everyone, "Kava made me sick so I don't do it anymore". Instead say, "I'm a stoner and I abused Tudei until it made me sick".

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Exactly jman

 

[HeadHodge]

If you use my patent pending copyrighted system of placing the first 3 digits of a products chemotype on the products package, you will easily be able to see and choose kava that not only gives you the effects that you want but will help you decide which ones to avoid (this information was compiled from various places including @Deleted User's web site).

If you are trying to avoid potentially non-Noble kava, because you prefer Noble kava then it's easy to see that you should avoid 'all' kava with a '5' in the number on the product bag.

If you are trying to stick to using Noble kava, then it's also easy to see that the best choices would be anything with a '4' and a '2' and a '6' on the product tag.

It's that simple.

The only exception I could find in my theory is 11-year waka from BHK (it's been tested as Orange, but has no '5' in it). You should also note that for reason, their is a heavy bias on testing GHK products (not implying anything, just an observation).

BULA

PRODUCTS WITH A '5' in the three digit tag
254 KDC Powdered Kava Root 254361 Orange
254 BKH Koniak 254613 Orange
254 HKC Tuday 254631 Orange
254 KKF Kava Root Plus 254631 Orange

245 NAH Solomon 245361 Orange
245 Boroguru-245613
245 Olitao Emae 245631
245 Melomelo Ambae 245361
245 GKE Malekula Magic 245361
245 GKE Pentecost Pride 245361
245 NAH White Sands 245361 Yellow
245 NAH Wow 245361 Yellow
254 GHK Ava Lea 245631 Yellow
254 Sese Pentecost 245631
254 Ge vemea Vanua Lava 245631

425 GKE Tanna Marang 425316
425 Borogoru Maewo 425361

BHK Fu'u-465213
Bula Kava House Fu’u-465213

PRODUCTS WITH a '2' '4' and '6' in the product tag
246 Borogu-246531
246 Pualiu Tongoa 246531
246 Palarasul Santo 246531
246 Palasa Santo 246531
246 Amon Tanna 246513
246 Asiyai Aneityum 246531
246 BirSul Santo 246531
246 Ge wiswisket Gaua 246513
246 Naga miwok Vanua Lava 246351
246 Gegusug Gaua 246531
246 Bir Kar Santo 246513
246 Leay Tanna 246351
246 Melmel Pentecost 246531
246 BHK Boroguru-245613
246 GHK Boroguru 245631 Yellow
246 BHK Borogu-246531
246 BKH 11 Year Waka 246531 O
246 GHK Honokane Iki 246513 Yellow
246 GHK Nene 246513 Yellow

426 BHK Melo Melo-426135
426 Miela Emae 426351
426 Paliment Emae 426351
426 GHK Mapulehu 426513 Yellow
426 GHK Hiwa 426513 Yellow
426 GHK Nene 426531 Yellow
426 GHK Moi 426531 Yellow
426 Biyai Aneityum 426531
426 KWK Pouni Ono (Tongan) 426531 Yellow
426 Urukara Santo 426531
426 Ahouia Tanna 426531
426 Bula Kava House Melo Melo-Either 426135

462 GHK Papa Kea-462351
462 GHK Mapulehu-462531
462 GHK Hiwa-462351
462 GHK Kumakua-462351
462 GHK Opihikao-462531
462 GHK Papa'ele'ele-462351

OTHER
241 KWK Boronguru 241563 Yellow
241 KWK Kalm with Kava 241563

243 Poivota Santo 243561
243 GKE Tanna Kaolik 243561
423 BKH Nambawan 423165 Yellow
423 Borogu Pentecost 423561
423 Kelai Epi 423516
423 Pia Tanna 423516
423 Puariki Tongoa 423156
423 GHK HanaKapi'ai-423651
423 Silese Malekula 423651
461 GHK Mahakea-461235
463 GHK Pana'ewa-463251
461 GHK Papa Ele Ele Pu'u Pu'uU-463251
461 GHK Honokane Iki-463251
461 GHK Mo'I Instant-463251
461 GHK Nene-463251

 

[TheKavaSociety]

One of your 426 kavas made me sick and miserable and gave me two days of lethargy. It was later confirmed that it was spiked with unknown tudei and perhaps aerial parts. So I ll just stick to the principle of 100% pure and noble or 100% wrong regardless of the advertised chemotype.

 

[HeadHodge]

One of your 426 kavas made me sick and miserable and gave me two days of lethargy. It was later confirmed that it was spiked with unknown tudei and perhaps aerial parts. So I ll just stick to the principle of 100% pure and noble or 100% wrong regardless of the advertised chemotype.

Numbers are universal and transcend regions and cultures, but nothing prevents the false reporting or doctoring of numbers intentionally or otherwise. That's why a monitoring service such as @Harpos is still important. To keep things honest. I'm am totally sure if you had @Deleted User test that kava you consumed it would be a different 3-digit chemotype than what is shown on that list.

And that's precisely what I think would be a great thing that would serve the kava community very well. Get the vendor to display the 3 digit chemo on their product but have one or more 3rd parties verify it. This process is very much similar to domain name confirmations by trusted entities. It's also called 'Trust but Verify'.

 

[HeadHodge]

Oh and re: my last post, more importantly this method (or system) totally removes the words 'Noble' and 'Tuedei' from the equation. What it does is validate that you are getting what the vendor is claiming to sell.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Numbers are universal and transcend regions and cultures, but nothing prevents the false reporting or doctoring of numbers intentionally or otherwise. That's why a monitoring service such as @Harpos is still important. To keep things honest. I'm am totally sure if you had @Deleted User test that kava you consumed it would be a different 3-digit chemotype than what is shown on that list.

And that's precisely what I think would be a great thing that would serve the kava community very well. Get the vendor to display the 3 digit chemo on their product but have one or more 3rd parties verify it. This process is very much similar to domain name confirmations by trusted entities. It's also called 'Trust but Verify'.

It's been said a few times already, but for the benefit of new members I will write it again: chemotype is not everything. In many cases kavas with the same chemotype have very different effects. Furthermore, tudei kavas are not merely kavas with a "heavier" chemotype, but distinct kava varieties that, according to the key kava experts, contain potentially toxic compounds that may contribute (or even determine) their negative effects. Tudei spiked kavas may have a less heady chemotype and still contain high levels of these risky compounds. Finally, chemotype alone won't say anything about other types of impurities.

I don't really understand your point. Do you want to discourage people from trusting Garry's tests? Do you want people to disregard his results and look instead for vendor'provided chemotypes that they could then verify... with Garry? Or do you want to convince Garry and others not to use the terms noble and tudei despite these terms being used by virtually all kava experts and leading global organisations looking into kava? Where's the benefit of doing this?

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Anyway, for those confused about tudei, here's a super quick summary of the controversy:

-Kava was first domesticated in modern-day vanuatu apx 3k years ago.
-Throughout generations islanders have been selecting varieties with a chemical composition offering more pleasant effects and fewer adverse effects (such as nausea, hangovers etc). The earlier varieties (including wild kava) are known to have high concentrations of chemicals causing these unpleasant effects.
-Some kavas (wild or "no drink) known for causing potentially bad reactions are never consumed. There are also the so-called tudei (two-day) kavas with a high potential for bad reactions that have reportedly been consumed but exclusively for ceremonial or specific medicinal purposes. Never for recreation or social purposes. Kavas consumed regularly and for social, political as well as medicinal purposes are known as "noble kava".
-In Vanuatu you can find all three types: wild/no drink, tudei and noble. Vanuatu experts and drinkers avoid the first two.
-On other islands people only have noble kava, which means that as they migrated from Vanuatu towards Hawaii they didn't take tudei or wild kava with them. This fact alone is quite telling.
-In the 1990s/2000s we had the big "kava safety" debate. Following years of debates and research we are now confident that kava is safe. But at the same time we understand that it is important to only drink certain parts of the plant and make sure the plant is stored and processed properly. We have also discovered that the wild and tudei kava varieties are not only unpleasant due to their chemotypes, but also contain very high amounts of potentially dangerous compounds. All leading kava experts recommend against drinking these kava. Vanuatu, the only country in the Pacific where many of these wild and tudei kavas grow, agrees with the experts and the government of Vanuatu has banned exports of tudei and wild kava in order to protect the industry.
-It's hard to eradicate tudei completely due to corruption and the fact it's easier to grow than noble kava. So many vendors and distributors try to add tudei to their products or sell pure tudei as "nobel kava".
-Thanks to Garry and many others, we now have reliable methods for detecting tudei adulteration and for the first time are able to avoid accidentally consuming the kind of kava that kava experts and traditional drinkers have warned us against. We can finally enjoy the full, reliable and predictable kava effects without worrying that buying kava is akin to playing a "Pacific roulette" with our health and well-being. But the choice is yours.

 

[ta-va]

"Vanuatu, the only country in the Pacific where many of these wild and tudei kavas grow"

I did not know this. Does this mean, then, that a benchmark of good, noble kava can be achieved by avoiding Vanuatu kava altogether? I have to say that I've found better effects from Fijian, Tongan and Hawaiian kavas, anyway. Up until now.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

"Vanuatu, the only country in the Pacific where many of these wild and tudei kavas grow"

I did not know this. Does this mean, then, that a benchmark of good, noble kava can be achieved by avoiding Vanuatu kava altogether? I have to say that I've found better effects from Fijian, Tongan and Hawaiian kavas, anyway. Up until now.

This used to be true. But we now know that a lot of tudei gets exported to places like Fiji or even has been planted in places like PNG and the Solomon Islands (or even Hawaii! the infamous "hawaiian" Isa...). On top of that, some vendors label their kava as "fijian" or "tonga" when it is in fact tudei from Vanuatu. So it's not so simple. But in general, Vanuatu has by far the greatest amount (and diversity) of tudei kava varieties. Until recently it was pretty much the only place where one could find tudei. In general though, it is quite telling that Pacific migrants did not carry tudei kavas with them when they colonized the Pacific islands.

To be clear: in addition to tudei and wild kava, Vanuatu grows some of the world's finest and most interesting noble varieties. And there are a few vendors on this forum that sell beautiful, noble Vanuatu varieties.