Perplexed by Tudei Controversy

[TheKavaSociety]

So that doesn't really describe the effects you would get from that product, that's why I'm suggesting the chemotype does a better job of that. So maybe stating on the product 'Chemo 52, 95% Noble' would work? Sounds overly complicated but maybe... I'm still waiting for a noble hawaiian cultivar that is '52'.

But that's precisely what True Kava does, mate. Garry doesn't only do the acetone test, but also offers full chemotypes (including specific amounts of specific kls, which seems to be even more important than the actual chemotype!). So you get all the info you need.

 

[HeadHodge]

sigh.. you're stubborn, but that's ok. You are promoting Noble only. I'm simply suggesting a simple way to tag a product on a shopping cart that quickly gives you a true report of the products characteristics. I just want to know what's in it so I can decide whether to buy it or not. I could give a crap if it's 100% Noble or not. But if it's not 100% Noble, I want to know what it actually is. All you are promoting is 100% Noble or it's tudei, and that's wrong. And I'm still waiting for a Noble kava that has a chemotype of '52'.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

sigh.. you're stubborn, but that's ok. You are promoting Noble only. I'm simply suggesting a simple way to tag a product on a shopping cart that quickly gives you a true report of the products characteristics. I just want to know what's in it so I can decide whether to buy it or not. I could give a crap if it's 100% Noble or not. But if it's not 100% Noble, I want to know what it actually is. All you are promoting is 100% Noble or it's tudei, and that's wrong. And I'm still waiting for a Noble kava that has a chemotype of '52'.

Well, I myself am not interested in spiked kavas so yea, I don't care what's inside a non 100% noble or pure kava.
But those who do care ,can look at Garry's results. He used to publish chemotypes of kavas that failed the acetone test.

 

[kasa_balavu]

You may not have to wait too long. Chris and I are researching how early we can reliably predict chemotype in mutations, and one of our goals is to produce a noble cultivar with the analgesic qualities of two day.

Awesome news!

Once there is noble product on the market with some of the desired qualities of tudei, it will become clear whether tudei vendors really love tudei, or are just selling it because it makes them more cash.

 

[HeadHodge]

Still waiting for a Noble kava that has a chemotype of '52'.

That was in 1989. Since then Lebot has spoken out again tudei consumption not because it can be too "heavy" , but because tudei contains higher amounts of elements capable of causing adverse effects in consumers.

I had to go feed with wifey...

So back to the fun... Are you saying that Lebot has evolved since their book?? and if so should I ignore all of his previous work? And what should I do if he once again evolve?? Have the other two authors evolved as well?

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I had to go feed with wifey...

So back to the fun... Are you saying that Lebot has evolved since there book?? and that I should ignore all of his previous work. And what should I do if he once again evolve?? Have the other two authors evolved as well?

Up to you, mate. I think Lebot is not some kind of omniscient diety, but a human and a scholar. I think it is feasible that he knows more about kava today than he did 25 years ago. It doesn't mean that he was wrong 25 years ago, but that has found new facts and has now a richer understanding of the issue. It's not like Lebot argued in 1989 that everyone should drink tudei.
In the quote you gave he (et al) observed: that "physiological effects of plants from these two chemotypes are too severe to allow daily consumption. When ingested, plants of these chemotypes produce an unpleasant nausea owing to their very high proportion of DHM (5) and DHK (2), the most potent kavalactones (Hänsel 1968; Lebot and Cabalion 1986)" and that tudeis are "rarely consumed".
I guess he would still agree with the above statement. But he would (perhaps - I am not his assistant or PR manager) add that there seem to be additional reasons why drinking tudei is a bad idea and why traditional users have avoided them.

BTW, do you think that scientists cannot expand their knowledge and that whatever they publish first has to be the absolute extension of knowledge on a given subject that they are allowed to express throughout their lives?
Most reasonable people I know recognize that more recent publications by a given author are likely to build on the previous body of knowledge and to add additional facts, observations or recommendations. Sometimes they offer corrections or new theories. Wise people see it as progress. But some people may choose to disregard the entire scholarship on the basis that current publications offer more info than those published 25 years ago.

 

[HeadHodge]

Up to you, mate. I think Lebot is not some kind of omniscient diety, but a human and a scholar. I think it is feasible that he knows more about kava today than he did 25 years ago. It doesn't mean that he was wrong 25 years ago, but that has found new facts and has now a richer understanding of the issue. It's not like Lebot argued in 1989 that everyone should drink tudei.
In the quote you gave he (et al) observed: that "physiological effects of plants from these two chemotypes are too severe to allow daily consumption. When ingested, plants of these chemotypes produce an unpleasant nausea owing to their very high proportion of DHM (5) and DHK (2), the most potent kavalactones (Hänsel 1968; Lebot and Cabalion 1986)" and that tudeis are "rarely consumed".
I guess he would still agree with the above statement. But he would (perhaps - I am not his assistant or PR manager) add that there seem to be additional reasons why drinking tudei is a bad idea and why traditional users have avoided them.

BTW, do you think that scientists cannot expand their knowledge and that whatever they publish first has to be the absolute extension of knowledge on a given subject that they are allowed to express throughout their lives?
Most reasonable people I know recognize that more recent publications by a given author are likely to build on the previous body of knowledge and to add additional facts, observations or recommendations. Sometimes they offer corrections or new theories. Wise people see it as progress. But some people may choose to disregard the entire scholarship on the basis that current publications offer more info than those published 25 years ago.

Very nice intelligent reply. Being stupid though, all I know is that one day coffee is bad for and the next day coffee is good for you. So I'm more in favor of one of the other posters here, where he says listen to your body.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Very nice intelligent reply. Being stupid though, all I know is that one day coffee is bad for and the next day coffee is good for you. So I'm more in favor of one of the other posters here, where he says listen to your body.

Well, again, it's not like he used to say "tudei is great" and now he says "tudei is bad". He's always said it causes unpleasant effects and it's rarely consumed or avoided. He now says that it should be avoided not only because of high dhm and dhk, but also because of the presence of other, previously overlooked, compounds present only in tudei and wichmanii. So your coffee analogy is not very accurate, unless you mean that tudei can work for you on some days and on some days it can screw you up, in which case you may be correct, but this hardly looks or sounds like a good review for tudei.
But obviously, do whatever makes you happy.

 

[Edward]

If two day kava wasn't really all that bad for you why would growers/suppliers/dodgy vendors be packaging and selling it as noble kava? It's obvious that they know that the majority of people only want to drink noble kava and that's why they have to be underhand and hide the fact that they have grown two day kava because it grows more quickly (or whatever the reason is). I'm not so much perplexed by the tudei controversy, I'm more perplexed that there's a discussion over whether people should have a right to decide what they consume.

Let me clarify, my "True Kava" conspiracy theory I posted yesterday was not my way of thinking, I did say after that I think Garry is doing something invaluable for kava users.

At the end of the day I don't care whether vendors are selling two day kava and/or even blended kava alongside noble kavas BUT JUST LABEL AND SELL IT PROPERLY SO THE CONSUMER HAS A CHOICE!

 

[Runding]

Let me clarify, my "True Kava" conspiracy theory I posted yesterday was not my way of thinking, I did say after that I think Garry is doing something invaluable for kava users.

Hey there, @Edward! I hope you didn't take offense to my post -- I wasn't trying to antagonize you at all. I just wanted to clarify my experience in working with Garry, because others have had similar questions pop up in the past and I've been a bit timid in contributing to such discussions. Bula

 

[Edward]

Yes, no problem, I just didn't want to be misunderstood.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Okay, okay.

I think we can find common ground here and move forward. I am willing to admit to a certain bias towards a more sociological and cultural angle of describing and recommending Kava varieties. I think this could be said to reveal a certain weakness or, at best, cynicism towards hard science. My Master's thesis sought to deconstruct the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's western-centric prescriptions for climate change adaptation, and I am hated in some circles for my pro-indigenous approach to a general climate change adaptation strategy. That being said, I am not characterizing this discussion as equivalent and I know that everyone here respects traditional Kava culture (which, Deleted User, I agree is always changing and even being revolutionized here). I think (hope) we are all pro-indigenous. That being said, let's leave that discussion aside.

Nobody here has any authority. We can all agree on that. By "authority" I mean that in a formal sense. So the best we can do is work together. Any tensions that exist between members here can be set aside and we can agree to respect each other's systems. One post here did stick out to me, however. It referred to my review of Koniak and went on to say that my recommendation almost ruined Kava for that person. This was a bit of an eye opening post for me. I know that Tudei can cause unpleasant side effects and horrible (and depressing) hangovers. I have also been there. To be honest, I used to neglect these side effects as irrelevant because they didn't seriously effect me. But when I hear someone say they almost ran away from Kava because of a review I made, it does give me pause.

Moving forward, I want to approach this topic openly and with interest rather than suspicion. I will do my best to sit down and read the dedicated work that the testers and quality-control promoters have invested here. I will try to incorporate it into my reviews and even "test" it to see how my own reaction to different Kavas is. I think we can all agree that quantitative and qualitative reviews and analyses are beneficial and I will do my part in improving my attitude towards the quantitative side.

Bula!

Douglas

 

[Edward]

Very conciliatory, just how much kava did you have before you wrote that?! ;-)

Seriously, looking forward to a new batch of reviews.

 

[HeadHodge]

....But obviously, do whatever makes you happy.

Precisely (armed with the facts to make an intelligent decision).

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

One post here did stick out to me, however. It referred to my review of Koniak and went on to say that my recommendation almost ruined Kava for that person. This was a bit of an eye opening post for me. I know that Tudei can cause unpleasant side effects and horrible (and depressing) hangovers. I have also been there. To be honest, I used to neglect these side effects as irrelevant because they didn't seriously effect me. But when I hear someone say they almost ran away from Kava because of a review I made, it does give me pause


This has been the whole point the entire time... lol @Kavasseur

 

[CactusKava]

One post here did stick out to me, however. It referred to my review of Koniak and went on to say that my recommendation almost ruined Kava for that person. This was a bit of an eye opening post for me. I know that Tudei can cause unpleasant side effects and horrible (and depressing) hangovers. I have also been there. To be honest, I used to neglect these side effects as irrelevant because they didn't seriously effect me. But when I hear someone say they almost ran away from Kava because of a review I made, it does give me pause


This has been the whole point the entire time... lol @Kavasseur

I hope I don't sound like an old man, but the board needs less cynicism like this. @Kavasseur is starting to see why we're so staunch on this issue, and is open to reviewing his own theories. Let's try to keep it civil and respect the points he's willing to concede on

Thanks for listening, @Kavasseur ! We're always open to new ideas, but there are a few we don't take lightly. Be sure to keep us updated with what you're doing.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I'm sadly one of those lol. Tuedi sounds cool in a way . But once again it should be labeled as such . And if it weren't for Deleted User I'd prolly still be consuming konakava and or that starwest crap I bought that's on display for everyone to see. I don't wanna know what would've happened if I consumed that kava from starwest, it wasn't even tuedi but aerial parts!!! Due to a lack of testing and research !

 

[Kojo Douglas]

One post here did stick out to me, however. It referred to my review of Koniak and went on to say that my recommendation almost ruined Kava for that person. This was a bit of an eye opening post for me. I know that Tudei can cause unpleasant side effects and horrible (and depressing) hangovers. I have also been there. To be honest, I used to neglect these side effects as irrelevant because they didn't seriously effect me. But when I hear someone say they almost ran away from Kava because of a review I made, it does give me pause


This has been the whole point the entire time... lol @Kavasseur

*grumble*

Best of luck and I hope many good and strong shells shower your path....