Lebot interview on Tudei/hepatotoxicity

[kavadude]

Plucked from Andrew's thread at KavaLounge...hopefully he will join us here soon, but I thought this was important enough to copy over immediately so everyone can see it.

 

[kavadude]

Summary
Suspects 3 potential sources of hepatotoxicity
- Flavokawain B, demonstrated to be toxic in vitro
- Pipermethystine, found only in the stems of the kava plant
- Mold infection
Tudeis have a lot of flavokawain B which is not present in noble kavas.
Still not 100% on the cause of kava-related liver injury but recommends against drinking tudeis for that reason.

 

[infraredz]

I avoided them too, until I got a package with some Koniak from a very special, kind-hearted person

Koniak is really powerful, and really helps me sleep and gets rid of any anxiety the next day. The potency is there, and the taste is awesome in my opinion, but when I'm done with my 250g package, it's goodbye.

 

[Buddhacide]

Thats good to know. I'll still be enjoying some isa from time to time though

 

[kavadude]

I avoided them too, until I got a package with some Koniak from a very special, kind-hearted person

Koniak is really powerful, and really helps me sleep and gets rid of any anxiety the next day. The potency is there, and the taste is awesome in my opinion, but when I'm done with my 250g package, it's goodbye.

Same it really is depressing. I'm almost at the end of my 1kg stash of Koniak.

 

[infraredz]

Well I received the nice package after the initial rumblings came out re: tudeis and FKB so I've only been using it as a 1-2 tbsp mixer with my normal kava. I think one full-fledged Koniak experience is in order before I quit it.

 

[Piper Methysticum]

For quite a while I thought the reason they weren't exporting their Tudeis was because these were more or less sacred Kavas that outsiders were not allowed to drink. Turns out the reason was that they were actually concerned it could cause health problems.

 

[infraredz]

Probably, but in Vanuatu if I'm not mistaken, even the natives stay away from it except for very exceptional circumstances. I think they understand it to be in a different class and that could be a big part of the reason they're not allowed to export it though. For example, in PNG where a lot of tudei comes from, the amount of kava consumption is very low compared to other kava countries and this could be due to the same reason.

I trust centuries of passed down wisdom and experience which is one of my arguments against toss and wash.

 

[Paradise Kava]

Love the interview! Never have been into ISA and just can't seem to get into it's appreciation.
Nothing new coming out of us ...for those who know Adil's views on ISA historically.

 

[Bula Kava House]

No reason to avoid Koniak. It's strong but neither my supplier, nor I have ever claimed it to be a tudei. Just because a kava comes from PNG doesn't mean it's a tudei. The growers of this particular strain have been drinking it daily for generations. Personally, I don't feel any more residual effect the next day from Koniak than any other kava. The hundreds of people that drink it at the kava bar don't report anything like that either.

 

[Deleted User01]

I like Koniak and I like mixing it with Tongan. But I'm finally learning how to use Kava the way it was intended so I will be moving towards the more euphoric, noble types for my daytime drinking. But yeah, Koniak is great for sleep. So it's nice to have some on hand for emergencies.

 

[The Kap'n]

(Moved to research & studies to keep it near the top. Definitely qualifies as top notch info)

 

[meow]

How toxic are these things in our root stock though? They might be toxic but to what degree because we all ingest somewhat toxic crap everyday. If it's not even comparable to liver toxicity of alcohol then I don't see it being that big of a deal since everyone does that anyway and what about all the reduced percentage of cancer in these indigenous ppl that drink kava.

 

[Deleted User01]

I wish someone would put it in perspective. For example, what is more toxic to your liver, 2 glasses of red wine or 1 shell of Koniak. And how much more Toxic is ISA compared to Koniak and so on. Like Meow said, everything in this world is Toxic but to what extent? Ideally, I would love to see a master list of liver toxicity with Booze, all types of Kavas, Benzos, and Tylenol on the list. Yup, Tylenol. Might blow your mind if you see that Tylenol is worse than Tudie.

 

[kavadude]

We don't know, that is part of the problem. I don't think there is a way of quantifying the hepatotoxicity of a substance, although I think its fairly safe to say at this point that kava is probably no more hepatotoxic than alcohol and tylenol as mentioned as long as it is prepared correctly.

It is entirely possible that kava causes an idiosyncratic hepatotoxic response, meaning it may occur in individuals who have other conditions like hepatitis that inflames their liver or even some rare genetic mutation that renders them incapable of processing kava. It may even be that kava only contains hepatotoxic compounds in trace amounts and cases of kava toxicity are caused by mold infection. Which would explain why I can drink a kilogram of delicious koniak in a month and be totally healthy whereas one of those people in Europe who had liver failure was only taking some shit kava pill for a few weeks.

But until we figure it out, I am going to stick with the recommendations of Vincent Lebot. He probably knows more about kava than anyone else on the planet.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

ya, a liver toxicity equivalency chart between different substances would be great. Tylenol is certainly one of the worst. I've read that tylenol/acetaminophen is the #1 cause of acute liver failure (even worse than alcohol and all the common drugs). You could easily kill yourself in one night with Tylenol. That would surely be difficult, if not impossible to do by drinking Tudei. (not that you should try)

 

[kavadude]

ya, a liver toxicity equivalency chart between different substances would be great. Tylenol is certainly one of the worst. I've read that tylenol/acetaminophen is the #1 cause of acute liver failure (even worse than alcohol and all the common drugs). You could easily kill yourself in one night with Tylenol. That would surely be difficult, if not impossible to do by drinking Tudei. (not that you should try)

It's responsible for 40% of cases of acute liver failure in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol_toxicity

I was horrified when my dad took some dayquil and washed it down with a couple glasses of wine. I honestly think it should be pulled from the market.

 

[Deleted User01]

Last year, I went for my Yearly Physical. I told the Doc, " Doc", I says, "I drink at least 2 glasses of alcohol everyday and I'm concerned about my liver." Doc says, "Some people's livers are effected by it and some are not. You just never know." And since I have been doing that for 40 years ...... bring on the Tudie! (I did give up Tylenol and I go very, very easy on the Advil). And I don't drink alcohol on my Kava days. Ok, Ok, maybe one cold beer once in a while to fight the "de-Hydrating" effects.

And that was before I got into Kava to reduce my alcohol consumption, relieve stress, and sleep like a newborn. My liver tests so far have been perfect. But you never know ......

 

[kavadude]

The liver is really a cool organ. It is the only human organ that can regenerate itself. So you generally have to be trying pretty damn hard to cause liver damage.