Kava Physiology Kava, your liver, and you

[kavadude]

This is a forum for fans of kava to discuss kava. It does not mean it is a place for us to be uncritical, assume that kava is safe under all circumstances, or take kava vendors at their word about their products. It is in our best interest to ensure that kava remains freely available to all, which means we are going to take a "better safe than sorry" approach when it comes to the safety of kava products.

Let's talk about liver safety. As you know there is some concern about whether kava can cause liver failure, due to being implicated in a number of cases of liver damage. Aqueous extracts of noble kava have been used in the Pacific Islands for thousands of years, without any increased incidence of liver damage.

When we try to figure out how, if at all, kava can cause liver damage, we have to look at what Westerners have done differently. There are a number of theories: use of tudei kava, use of nonpolar solvent extracts, microbial infection of poorly stored and processed root, perhaps some combination thereof.

None of these have been proven, and indeed it make take some confluence of multiple factors in order for kava to cause liver damage which will be difficult if not impossible to replicate in a lab setting.

The takeaway from all of this is that when you choose to go away from aqueous extracts of noble kava, you are going off the beaten track. You are turning your body into an experiment with a sample size of 1. If you are a vendor, you are turning your customers into an experiment.

Tudei kava might be safe, or it might not.
Alcohol extracts of kava might be safe, or they might not.
Aqueous extracts of noble kava are safe.

It's a free country and I can't stop vendors from selling tudei kava, I can't stop people from consuming whatever kava they please in whatever fashion they please and mixing it with whatever substances they want to.

I just don't want anybody to get hurt, especially since aqueous extracts of noble kava are extremely effective.

So, in the absence of solid clinical studies about the safety of these things, I am going to continue to recommend that you stick to aqueous extracts of noble kava (as defined by the Codex Alimentarius), that you get your kava from trustworthy vendors, and that you do not mix it with other botanical or pharmaceutical substances.

 

[keeron]

The takeaway from all of this is that when you choose to go away from aqueous extracts of noble kava, you are going off the beaten track. You are turning your body into an experiment with a sample size of 1.
If you are a vendor, you are turning your customers into an experiment.

True words. Put in to that context, It makes you think a little.
That's why its wise to buy from reputable vendors, mainly the ones who are genuine.

I have a hard time buying from a Vendor that is not specified under KavaForums Suppliuer List.
Infact i dont buy any Kava that's not on the Kavaforums Supplier List.

 

[Monkava'd]

I just don't want anybody to get hurt, especially since aqueous extracts of noble kava are extremely effective.

So, in the absence of solid clinical studies about the safety of these things, I am going to continue to recommend that you stick to aqueous extracts of noble kava (as defined by the Codex Alimentarius), that you get your kava from trustworthy vendors, and that you do not mix it with other botanical or pharmaceutical substances.

I apologize if any posts were taken to imply anything other than safety; and when referencing something; I make it a necessity to reference it only as a means of safety to kava in specific (such as heptoxicity or liver protection) and not anything else, or even by name.

It needs to be ascertained that only the safety of kava itself is of importance to this forum; and any other herbal practices associated are to be contained within a separate blog (like the one keeron hopes to create ) ; so that anyone new to this type of info does not take an a+b=c stance or as an medical practice especially when the research is under development and far from complete.

All aforementioned posts have not been made in recommendation, but only in proposed theory to formulate further discussion safety wise on kava and preventative measures.

Thank you for this post Kavadude as this should really help clear the air for others not so sure of what's in value here; or that haven't formed their respective thoughts around such matters.

Safety is the prime goal of course here and I will do my best to continue that moral practice because it's what brings conformity to confusion.

Edit- Same here Keeron, I don't abide by any vendors other than ones representing herein.

At least ever since I've discovered this forum.

 

[kavadude]

Nobody has done anything wrong, things were just getting a little off track for this forum and I felt the need to step in. Everybody means well and I hope nobody is thinking they have to walk on eggshells around here.

 

[Roaddog]

My wife has recently been cured from hepatitis C. Her Doctors have said that she has lost all her fatty tissue, around the liver, (Ya she had it bad, almost died) which is a very good thing. Her doctor has also said that her liver is functioning at 100%. So she has started taking kava, on smaller doses. We only mess with the very strained tea. Also I believe I was reading some other thread, from some other forum, that indicated that a soil pollution problem, had possibly lead to various cases of Liver damage. I don't know if I could ever find the thread again, but it might be something to think about. I mean, there are a lot of kava drinkers, and if you go back in history, as posted above, Aqueous extracts of noble kava are safe. This whole problem could be related to polluted soil, the root was grown in. Or a particular root harvest. Much Love. Roaddog....

 

[infraredz]

My wife has recently been cured from hepatitis C. Her Doctors have said that she has lost all her fatty tissue, around the liver, (Ya she had it bad, almost died) which is a very good thing. Her doctor has also said that her liver is functioning at 100%. So she has started taking kava, on smaller doses. We only mess with the very strained tea. Also I believe I was reading some other thread, from some other forum, that indicated that a soil pollution problem, had possibly lead to various cases of Liver damage. I don't know if I could ever find the thread again, but it might be something to think about. I mean, there are a lot of kava drinkers, and if you go back in history, as posted above, Aqueous extracts of noble kava are safe. This whole problem could be related to polluted soil, the root was grown in. Or a particular root harvest. Much Love. Roaddog....

You are exactly correct! One thing I would say is that especially with your wife having the issues she does, she should certainly follow her MD's orders on kava.

Also, regarding toxicity, I think you might be referring to the various viruses, bacteria fungus and pathogens in the root. That is something the AKA is working on getting analised and tested

 

[Deleted User01]

Thank you Kavadude. I'm going to say this because it concerns me a lot. If somebody has decided to go against all scientific evidence and make drinking Tudie a "hobby" then go for it. If somebody claims that they are smarter than Dr. Lebot, then go for it. But these claims should not be posted here on the Forum because there is no way for anybody to determine the validity of said claims made that one supplement or another will make drinking Tudie Ok. We have to go with the Scientific Research which has been presented to us by well know and established Scientists. If you happen to be a well know Scientist or wanna be scientist, then post your claims in front of the Scientific Community. If they they are valid, then they can be posted here.

 

[Roaddog]

^^^yes, thank you, infarafz I will have her check with her doctor. She finished chemo 3 months ago. Here is one thing I remember her hepatologist saying. The liver was the only organ that has the ability to heal itself. He also mentioned a thing called a living doner liver transplant. That's Basically where Possibly I would have half my liver cut out, and donate it to my wife (if we matched) and both of us would grow the remainder of the missing liver back. Basically making two livers from one. Crazy huh? Sorry Im get a little off topic. But I would like to say, because of my wifes condition, I would love to learn as much as I can on the effects on the liver, and the human body as a whole. Thank you for your work and research. Much love. Roaddog....

 

[keeron]

Thank you Kavadude. I'm going to say this because it concerns me a lot. If somebody has decided to go against all scientific evidence and make drinking Tudie a "hobby" then go for it. If somebody claims that they are smarter than Dr. Lebot, then go for it. But these claims should not be posted here on the Forum because there is no way for anybody to determine the validity of said claims made that one supplement or another will make drinking Tudie Ok. We have to go with the Scientific Research which has been presented to us by well know and established Scientists. If you happen to be a well know Scientist or wanna be scientist, then post your claims in front of the Scientific Community. If they they are valid, then they can be posted here.

My thread was created off of Scientific studies, Jourals and Clinical trials. Infact all of what you read was taken from Scientific Journal's.
http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/30/11/1153.full.pdf
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/aps/2011/326724/
http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/30/11/1153.full

If you cant have a balance of opinions & views then that's up to you. But each Scientist has their own conclusions.
I went to alot of effort to create that thread and present an alternative perspective on how Kava was hepatotoxic, in the people reported on.
And i did not go against all scientific evidence, I included all sides, if you got to the end of my thread, i included FKB.

I said Tudei should not be given up because of the studies i presented ^^ above me.
And then i later went on to say why Tudei should be given up. This was for the same reason as Dr Lebot hypothesised.
So i don't know where me going against Dr Lebot's Info, is coming from ??

All i did was try to eloborate on what Dr Lebot said, and try to work out why FKB can deplete GSH.
Dr Lebot is right & know's more about Kava than me, its that simple. I agree with everything he is doing.
I was simply sharing scientific studies & journals, with my own interpretation & I Never once said i was smarter than Dr Lebot.

Im not going against anything, i dont drink Tudei everyday and dont think anyone should. I dont know everything.
And when it comes to Kava, i know nothing.

 

[Deleted User01]

I apologize Keeron, I lost it last night and I was wrong. There is no room in this Forum for those kind of rants. But I had a revelation last nite that anyone can post anything on the Forum and there is no way for us to know if it is true or not. For example, I could post that if you drink 2 IPAs that are high in hop content, then it will reverse the bad effects of the Tudie that will follow the beer. And of course Home Brewed beer is high n Vitamin B and they would prevent Dermopathy. I can also say that I have been doing it for 6 months and my regiment is working great. I can say anything without having to present scientific evidence, lab tests, and all the other tools of the Scientific method. My fear is that Newbies will take our "Theories" as fact and start chugging Tudie with their supplements. Your "theories" may be based on some facts but they haven not been proven in a lab as it pertains to Tudie Kava. So to anyone reading our various "theories" here on the forum, I would say "Don't try this at home" until the theory goes through the Scientific Method.

Roaddog, I want to wish your wife a speedy recovery. Any info you can give us on the liver is much appreciated. As you can see, it is a touchy topic around here.

 

[keeron]

I apologize Keeron, I lost it last night and I was wrong. There is no room in this Forum for those kind of rants. But I had a revelation last nite that anyone can post anything on the Forum and there is no way for us to know if it is true or not. For example, I could post that if you drink 2 IPAs that are high in hop content, then it will reverse the bad effects of the Tudie that will follow the beer. And of course Home Brewed beer is high n Vitamin B and they would prevent Dermopathy. I can also say that I have been doing it for 6 months and my regiment is working great. I can say anything without having to present scientific evidence, lab tests, and all the other tools of the Scientific method. My fear is that Newbies will take our "Theories" as fact and start chugging Tudie with their supplements. Your "theories" may be based on some facts but they haven not been proven in a lab as it pertains to Tudie Kava. So to anyone reading our various "theories" here on the forum, I would say "Don't try this at home" until the theory goes through the Scientific Method.

Roaddog, I want to wish your wife a speedy recovery. Any info you can give us on the liver is much appreciated. As you can see, it is a touchy topic around here.

Dont worry, as i can understand your concerns, And i don't resent you for saying what you said, as i understand why you said it.
And its my fault, for not thinking about newcomers or people who may mistake my every word for facts or something that they have to agree with me on.
I now know how to present information in future threads, i understand yourself & Kavadude's worries.

The moderators don't want to advocate medical advice on this forum, which i totally understand, as Kava by itself is a touchy subject.
And after Kavadude has said what he said, i know that as a forum, giving medical advice in here is very touchy,
Until Kava is understood, accepted & Legal in more countries then these worries about medical advice, will remain.

Its hard for me, as i just want to try and help people, but i get carried away, thinking that everyone understands biology,chemistry and other
things i may touch upon, forgetting that people may mistake what i say, for facts, which i apologize for.

But, If i have other information and topics like this, like i said to Headhodge i am thinking of sharing them in a blog, which i can easily do.
This will then, take the worries away from the moderators.

 

[Deleted User01]

Keeron, thanks, I appreciate that. And by the way folks, I was kidding about the beer thing. Beer does have a lot of vitamin B but it is also dehydrating so it will hurt, not help dermopathy. If only beer could cure stuff ....

 

[Monkava'd]

The same as everyone else in this forum has said I do not seek to reprimand anyone based off of their opinions as long as they're not looked to as fact by others of the community or not; and I know all of us here are striving to promote a strictly balanced outlook on this subject.

It just so happens that when this many opinions are flying to and fro; difficulties in exactly what discretion is being interpreted will arise; mainly due to the sheer fact that we are on a forum and not speaking face to face without any method of vocal expression to give lineage on what's being said as 'fact' 'theory ect can be rather difficult.

I have come to realize this even more; but I hope since we've already been able to manage it this far with what's been available; guidelines will become nothing more than second hand nuances, that individuals new and old to this forum have full knowledge of communicating to each other.

Not one of us would even be here If it wasn't for the hearty values placed on practices of safety, moderation and our 'better safe than sorry' attitude.

So Keeron make your blog!

Deleted User01 keep doing what you do even if it's kickin me or others into line and if necessary GET MAD!

Okay maybe that's a bit to far hahahaha...

And lest I forget; you are the honorary brew master of these Kava forums; so I christen you on this day by saying you hold more inexhaustible knowledge of ipas and the process than I feel I could ever wish to formulate.

Finally even if unnecessary, I formally apologize if anything I've said has ever come off in contempt, impudence, or ignorance and even just downright abhorrence to anyone herein for that is not what I have ever or will ever hold adherence too.

Because even if I don't know you're username you are inestimable to this forum.

Edit- I almost forgot BULA! AND HAVE A FEW SHELLS TODAY EVERYONE!
At least where I live IT'S SUNDAY.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Just a note everyone, peer review is the way to go. That is the best because it is reproducible effects, reproducible studies.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[kavadude]

Well said Chris, and let us remember that in vivo studies are the best and we just don't have very many of them. The UMinn mouse cancer study was the first really promising study in a long time. In vitro studies are fun to speculate on but ultimately cannot be the basis of any recommendations.

 

[Roaddog]

If only the big pharmi could make money off kava, there would be tons of research, and Peer reviews. Thing is that lab research, takes money. Its hard to make a drug out of a simple plant that already has properties, that can be used medicinally in there natural state. Kava may very well cure cancer, but we wont know about it, well Have scientific proof about it, because It would not go through a chemical process, changing in some sort of way, so the drug companies can patient it. Other wise any research done, would be for harm reduction. Unfortunately not a lot of funding for those sort of things. Much love. Roaddog....

 

[Steve T]

Also, regarding toxicity, I think you might be referring to the various viruses, bacteria fungus and pathogens in the root. That is something the AKA is working on getting analised and tested

The bacteria thing makes me wonder. Is it possible to get "traveler's diarrhea" by consuming kava from some islands/countries? I have gotten debilitating diarrhea from Melo Melo for 1-2 days after drinking it. Sometimes I feel like 120F isn't hot enough. I didn't feel these effects when drinking Wakacon Fiji kava or even their tudei kava, and that vendor is bad.

 

[Roaddog]

Funny you would ask that, I was getting on here to ask a similarly embarrassing question. I really didn't know where to ask this at, so Ill do it here, being that I have already discussed my wifes chemo, with Hep. C. Well she went through treatment twice. First time she went on treatment, it was the old 48 week living hell chemo, which she failed. So she waited a year or two, and there is this new treatment, that she did, that has a very high success rate, and only takes 12 weeks, which she was able to do. Anyway as I have now mentioned. She is cured. But has been left with chronic constipation. Well she claims 2 shells, and 20 minutes later, and she has to go to the bathroom. Now this is really amazing, because she has had such terrible problems with that. Sometimes going 2 weeks without a stool. No she has tested this theory for about a week now, and almost every time, it works. My question, is has anyone heard of such a thing, Could this be the Kava? or could it be that her body is just adjusting from being screaming sick for 2 years? She has been coming off all the medications, involved in this treatment. Many are even somewhat addicting. So her struggles with her liver, has consumed so much of our lives. But has anyone heard of Kava working to keep you regular, or actually stimulating, bowel movements? Sorry for being so graphic. Much love. Roaddog....

 

[infraredz]

I don't know much about this, though I do have some studies regarding pathogens that have been found in Kava root.

However, and @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava can comment on this, I think that the way the kava is peeled and washed, as well as packaged is mostly safe.

Also, @Tyler can comment on this since this is a concern for hepatotoxicity with kava and still a viable hypothesis for the observed hepatotoxicity in kava users years ago. It's my understanding that kava is screened when imported, though I could be wrong. I do know that the AKA is getting up and running and one of their very important analyses is microbiological counts for

• Total plate count
• Yeast
• Mold
• E. Coli
• Salmonella
• Staph Aureus
• Total Coliforms

 

[kavadude]

Roaddog...kava often "makes things move" if you know what I mean. Its become pavlovian with me sometimes I will make my kava and have to go before I can even drink it.

I hope your wife is using kava with the docs okay with all this medication and her history.