I can understand your concern here, but you seem to be forgetting that if liver/heart damage was as guarenteed with heavy use of Kava as you seem to believe it is, there would be a lot more people on this forum and a LOT more people in the Southeastern Pacific Islands with failing hearts and livers. But it's observably true that this just isn't the case. You would literally have to deny reality to make the claim that using Kava in high and frequent doses WILL lead to serious bodily harm and that it's always (or even remotely often) the Kava alone that did it. Clearly there's more to it than just "Kava raises your GGT/ALP levels, therefore it will damage your liver".
High GGT and ALP
- Thread starter Kava Drinker
- Start date
PepperyPyrone
I'll have the pyrones with some pepper, please.
Damn, if I was this worried about kava, based on a few very small studies conducted in unhealthy populations with subpar kava, I would not drink it, just for my sanity.
Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
I completely agree that there is more to it than kava increases GGT and ALP therefore liver damage but no one seems to be able to tell me what the more to it is. It seems to break the conventional understanding of GGt and ALP. There is no hypothesis out there to suggest why
Kava Drinker
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For example doctors use GGT and ALP levels as a Indicator for alcohol induced cholestasis but when it happens with kava it has nothing to do with cholestasis which makes no sense to me
Alia
'Awa Grower/Collector
My anecdotal understanding of the Hawai'i study (Brown et. al. ) is that it was flawed due to the questionable background of participants.
I can only speak from my own experience of drinking approx. 16 oz of good, strong, fresh 'awa each evening since 2001*.
My annual liver test is fine, normal according to my Doctor.
Basically, I agree with all the comments and links from Henry- Kava Society of New Zealand.
*another interesting experience related is that pre-2001 (starting around mid 1990's) I drank beverage from good, dry, ground 'awa/kava.
During those years I had an unrelated fingernail fungus infection and my Doctor put me on an oral medication known to cause liver damage in some folks so he insisted I take a liver test every 6 weeks for over a year. Understand-- I am daily, drinking 'awa beverage and taking this medication and my liver remained steady and normal.
But, that's just my own personal experience, I cannot speak for others.
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
We drink a lot of kava in Fiji. Every kava drinker drinks multiple times the "western" recommended dose. Early this year economists blamed our high inflation on the price of kava. The prices of kava tripled in a year, but that barely made a dent in consumption patterns. We drink a lot of kava in Fiji.
Hours spent a couple of nights a week sitting on the floor drinking copious amounts of kava and having a very salty or very sweet snack after every bilo (shell). Many smoke when they drink kava, and one more thing... it's common in Fiji to end the kava session with alcohol. We call it wash-down.
Everyone here (myself included) on the other side of the argument from you will very strongly advise against mixing alcohol with kava because that actually could cause liver damage, but this is very common in Fiji.
You can find tens of thousands of people in Fiji who've drunk copious amounts of kava multiple days a week (often followed by wash-down) for their entire adult lives and yet there appears to be no higher incidence of liver disease in this group than in the general population.
It's the chasers: http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=418289
Hours spent a couple of nights a week sitting on the floor drinking copious amounts of kava and having a very salty or very sweet snack after every bilo (shell). Many smoke when they drink kava, and one more thing... it's common in Fiji to end the kava session with alcohol. We call it wash-down.
Everyone here (myself included) on the other side of the argument from you will very strongly advise against mixing alcohol with kava because that actually could cause liver damage, but this is very common in Fiji.
You can find tens of thousands of people in Fiji who've drunk copious amounts of kava multiple days a week (often followed by wash-down) for their entire adult lives and yet there appears to be no higher incidence of liver disease in this group than in the general population.
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Regarding BMI: In the Hawaiian study, the great majority of both the kava drinkers and controls were either obese or overweight (in the kava drinker's group: 45% obese, 39% overweight, 16% normal)... so apparently not as healthy a group as I had initially said, but still healthier than the population in the Australian study..
@Kava Drinker seems very determined to prove that kava is actually a frighteningly toxic substance compared to other things. I'm not sure if he's simply a lobbyist for pharmaceutical benzos or Magnolia bark, trying to besmirch kavas time-tested, widely accepted good name or just an obsessive worrier, deeply under the influence of confirmation bias, with a propensity to lean toward the negative.
If I wanted to use confirmation bias to prove the dangers of Magnolia bark, I could go online and pluck things out like this WebMD quote:
...or I could scare myself with this study:
...and if that were my inclination, I'd keep researching and collecting quotes and studies that mention the negatives, while ignoring everything else, until I convince myself it must be quite dangerous.
Here's a quote about GGT:
So here we see benzos listed as one of the common possibilities for raised GGT too, should I assume the worst about benzo-induced hepatotoxicity now? Not to mention, benzos have their own problem, being addictive and causing dangerous withdrawals for anyone who uses them daily. It's also important to note the role diabetes can play in cases of elevated liver enzymes, especially when talking about kava studies involving Pacific Islander groups where diabetes and obesity is well known to have been on the rise for many decades, due to changes in diet and increasingly sedentary life style. Tobacco is also common in these regions and is known to raise GGT as well. Remember too, that other seemingly everyday things can raise GGT, like eating meat.
We know that kava is metabolized by the liver and will therefor have some effect on it, just like nearly everything else we consume does, to varying degrees. But raised GGT from kava, settles back down soon after cessation, without ever triggering the more liver-specific enzyme ALT and never causing jaundice, which would be very apparent in regular kava drinkers if it were really as dangerous as you think. The vast majority of evidence points to the fact that water extractions of noble kava, consumed alone, not in combination with other drugs/meds/herbs/alcohol is generally harmless to drinkers who have no underlying health issues or genetic mutations that affect the metabolization process.
If it hasn't been posted yet, here's a study the shows GGT quickly decreasing after kava and acknowledges that there's;
I don't know if the FK-B related toxicity is connected to the rise in GGT, but here are some studies that showed that supplemental doses of GSH (Glutathione, NAC, and probably milk thistle) counteract FK-B toxicity -- Also note, traditional kava preparations naturally include some amount of glutathione:
You have to understand, kava is relatively rare outside of the Pacific Islands and has hardly been properly studied, compared to things like alcohol and pharma drugs. A lot more needs to be done and we don't have much to work with. But what we do have is a long history of safe usage by humans as well as a bit of some seemingly good science that generally considers it safe. Dangerous or fatal reactions appear to be anomalous exceptions to the rule and only seem to arise when kava is combined with some other rare variable.
As with most things, it's always good to take breaks intermittently and give your body a break. If you happen to be legitimately allergic or genetically predisposed to metabolizing it improperly, then abstinence is probably your safest bet.
If I wanted to use confirmation bias to prove the dangers of Magnolia bark, I could go online and pluck things out like this WebMD quote:
" What are the risks of taking magnolia?
Risks. Avoid using magnolia during pregnancy. And use caution if you take medicine to help you sleep or lessen your anxiety. Magnolia bark can also be toxic and has been linked to kidney disease and permanent kidney failure."
Risks. Avoid using magnolia during pregnancy. And use caution if you take medicine to help you sleep or lessen your anxiety. Magnolia bark can also be toxic and has been linked to kidney disease and permanent kidney failure."
"High concentration of magnolol (chemical in magnolia bark) under serum-reduced conditions attenuates NF-kappaB-mediated signaling and induces intrinsic apoptotic pathway, thereby inducing in vitro hepatotoxicity."
Here's a quote about GGT:
If your GGT is above 100, and your ALT is less than 80 and your ALP is less than 200
This could mean that:
This could mean that:
- You are drinking too much alcohol
- You are taking recreational drugs such as ice or heroin
- You have diabetes
- You have a fatty liver
- You have very high levels of the blood fat called triglycerides
- You are taking certain prescribed drugs that have stimulated your liver to make more enzymes for example – barbiturates, benzodiazepines, anticonvulsants, warfarin, tricyclic antidepressants, paracetamol, pain killers or immunosuppressants.
So here we see benzos listed as one of the common possibilities for raised GGT too, should I assume the worst about benzo-induced hepatotoxicity now? Not to mention, benzos have their own problem, being addictive and causing dangerous withdrawals for anyone who uses them daily. It's also important to note the role diabetes can play in cases of elevated liver enzymes, especially when talking about kava studies involving Pacific Islander groups where diabetes and obesity is well known to have been on the rise for many decades, due to changes in diet and increasingly sedentary life style. Tobacco is also common in these regions and is known to raise GGT as well. Remember too, that other seemingly everyday things can raise GGT, like eating meat.
We know that kava is metabolized by the liver and will therefor have some effect on it, just like nearly everything else we consume does, to varying degrees. But raised GGT from kava, settles back down soon after cessation, without ever triggering the more liver-specific enzyme ALT and never causing jaundice, which would be very apparent in regular kava drinkers if it were really as dangerous as you think. The vast majority of evidence points to the fact that water extractions of noble kava, consumed alone, not in combination with other drugs/meds/herbs/alcohol is generally harmless to drinkers who have no underlying health issues or genetic mutations that affect the metabolization process.
If it hasn't been posted yet, here's a study the shows GGT quickly decreasing after kava and acknowledges that there's;
This data from the World Health Organization shows Fiji, where kava is consumed regularly and often for a long duration, to be among the worlds lowest LIVER DISEASED countries. The map used to show other kava drinking nations, but no longer does. When they did, however, they all had similarly low rates of liver disease, which should be high in these regions where it's consumed regularly, if kava and it's raised GGT were really an issue. On the other hand, they did have generally high rates of kidney disease(which Fiji still shows), but this is linked to the known rise in diabetes, obesity and other 3rd world environmental factors. The kidney disease precedes the heart disease and neither have been correlated to kava.
I don't know if the FK-B related toxicity is connected to the rise in GGT, but here are some studies that showed that supplemental doses of GSH (Glutathione, NAC, and probably milk thistle) counteract FK-B toxicity -- Also note, traditional kava preparations naturally include some amount of glutathione:
"Addition of GSH to kava extracts has been shown to reduce cytotoxicity in vitro..."
"Surprisingly, replenishment with exogenous GSH normalizes both TNF-α-dependent NF-κB
as well as MAPK signaling and rescues hepatocytes from FKB-induced death."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21506562
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20696856
as well as MAPK signaling and rescues hepatocytes from FKB-induced death."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21506562
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20696856
As with most things, it's always good to take breaks intermittently and give your body a break. If you happen to be legitimately allergic or genetically predisposed to metabolizing it improperly, then abstinence is probably your safest bet.
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Here is the full text for that--by the authors of the Australian studies, AR Clough et al
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ThePiper
Kava Lover
Op is shaken up from having a doctor tell him that he has signs of liver damage. To be honest I would too. Then again other doctors would probably say that it's not a sign and to just keep taking panels in the coming months to assess the situation. I am extremely health squeamish when I am told there might be a serious issue with me. When I was told I had to be put under and have minor surgery I almost fainted. I used to Google health problems all the time and reach a point of anxiety that would make me almost have to vomit. Not saying this is exactly what op is experiencing but it's totally reasonable for a health conscious person to get a little scared when a doc says there may be a problem with a vital organ... I don't think we should accuse him of being an antikava pharma shill, even if it is in a joking manner... The biggest testament to kavas safety for me is that there hasn't been more reports of negatives from kava because you have to think about how many people are drinking kava along with unhealthy lifestyle and plain bad decisions, including those resulting from being uneducated on the health considerations like taking acetaminophen with kava or drinking alcohol with it. I'm sure there are a lot of kava drinkers who pop several extra strength Tylenol a every day with their kava simply because they don't realize the risk
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Kava Drinker
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I am trying to be as abrupt and brash as possible because I will have a greater chance of getting responses from you guys. I am trying to say controversial things so yous will reply and defend kava.
magnolia bark is pretty safe. It has caused kidney failure when taken with other things but on its own is not harmful. It seems to have less of a affect on my liver enzymes than kava. It is most likely safer for your liver than kava. With Benzos there is the risk of addiction but the new benzos out there have very little adverse affects. Relative to kava these substances do not affect liver enzymes/function so maybe better alternatives. and yes I am a undercover lobbyist trying to convert a handful of kava drinkers.
when I am on lunesta alone my enzymes were lower than when I am on kava alone. however there are some benzos that the liver is more sensitive to but one can easily avoid these. they give Benzos to people with severe liver damage and they have a whole list of ones to give. Baclofen also is a Gaba B agonist that does not affect the liver adversely.
In there study there was a positive correlation between Kava use and GGT. This means that all your claims of smoking, alcohol and all the other things you are claiming to be causes would indicate no positive correlation as these factors do not correspond with kava use or at least have not have a direct correspond. So this suggests kava is causing the high GGT. As I see it there is just no debate, moderate to heavy kava use seems to raise GGT and ALP and this opinion is shared by many of the leading researchers. This has been reproduced and reproduced in the studies I have mentioned and at this stage it is more a principle/law than a observation/theory. and high GGT has been associated with a number of bad things(mortality, cholestasis,heart disease) so anyone who is health conscious ( maybe you people are not) would be worried to see these levels raised due to my doctors opinion and its associations with problems.
"
An elevated GGT level suggests that a condition or disease is damaging the liver but does not indicate specifically what. In general, the higher the level, the greater the damage to the liver. Elevated levels may be due to liver diseases, such as hepatitis or cirrhosis, but they may also be due to other conditions, such as congestive heart failure, diabetes, or pancreatitis. They may also be caused by alcohol abuse or use of drugs that are toxic to the liver.
A low or normal GGT test result indicates that it is unlikely that a person has liver disease or has consumed any alcohol."
Elevated GGT levels may be an indicator of cardiovascular disease and/or hypertension. Some studies have shown that people with increased GGT levels have an elevated risk of dying from heart disease, but the reason for this association is not yet known."
Elavated GGT is bad aswell as ALP and this is unfortunately what kava does. I think a lot of you are in denial and need to stop sugar coating it cause these are the facts.
magnolia bark is pretty safe. It has caused kidney failure when taken with other things but on its own is not harmful. It seems to have less of a affect on my liver enzymes than kava. It is most likely safer for your liver than kava. With Benzos there is the risk of addiction but the new benzos out there have very little adverse affects. Relative to kava these substances do not affect liver enzymes/function so maybe better alternatives. and yes I am a undercover lobbyist trying to convert a handful of kava drinkers.
when I am on lunesta alone my enzymes were lower than when I am on kava alone. however there are some benzos that the liver is more sensitive to but one can easily avoid these. they give Benzos to people with severe liver damage and they have a whole list of ones to give. Baclofen also is a Gaba B agonist that does not affect the liver adversely.
In there study there was a positive correlation between Kava use and GGT. This means that all your claims of smoking, alcohol and all the other things you are claiming to be causes would indicate no positive correlation as these factors do not correspond with kava use or at least have not have a direct correspond. So this suggests kava is causing the high GGT. As I see it there is just no debate, moderate to heavy kava use seems to raise GGT and ALP and this opinion is shared by many of the leading researchers. This has been reproduced and reproduced in the studies I have mentioned and at this stage it is more a principle/law than a observation/theory. and high GGT has been associated with a number of bad things(mortality, cholestasis,heart disease) so anyone who is health conscious ( maybe you people are not) would be worried to see these levels raised due to my doctors opinion and its associations with problems.
"
An elevated GGT level suggests that a condition or disease is damaging the liver but does not indicate specifically what. In general, the higher the level, the greater the damage to the liver. Elevated levels may be due to liver diseases, such as hepatitis or cirrhosis, but they may also be due to other conditions, such as congestive heart failure, diabetes, or pancreatitis. They may also be caused by alcohol abuse or use of drugs that are toxic to the liver.
A low or normal GGT test result indicates that it is unlikely that a person has liver disease or has consumed any alcohol."
Elevated GGT levels may be an indicator of cardiovascular disease and/or hypertension. Some studies have shown that people with increased GGT levels have an elevated risk of dying from heart disease, but the reason for this association is not yet known."
Elavated GGT is bad aswell as ALP and this is unfortunately what kava does. I think a lot of you are in denial and need to stop sugar coating it cause these are the facts.
Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
just because GGT goes down quickly does justify or make less of the affects to the liver.If anything this is a bad sign as its showing GGT is raised. This happens with most liver poisons as you stop consuming it your liver functioning goes back to normal.
the kidney issues also have a strong possibility of being linked to kava. people on this have reported kindey stones and other kidney problems.
https://www.schmidtandclark.com/kava-tea-kidney-damage
This is also quite scary and you should probably be careful if you have bad kidneys due to the association of kava drinking countries and kidney problems
oral Glutathione has poor bioavailability.
the kidney issues also have a strong possibility of being linked to kava. people on this have reported kindey stones and other kidney problems.
https://www.schmidtandclark.com/kava-tea-kidney-damage
This is also quite scary and you should probably be careful if you have bad kidneys due to the association of kava drinking countries and kidney problems
oral Glutathione has poor bioavailability.
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Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
as for my personal situation my GGT was significantly raised and my ALP was on the boderline between the mex normal value and raised but i had tests done from when I never took kava and ALP was higher than it was not drinking kava. my doctor advised me to stop which I have done and she said I should get a ultrasound but right now i can not get one due to my living conditions. my doctor was quite concerned though.
"Elevated serum GGT activity can be found in diseases of the liver, biliary system, and pancreas. In this respect, it is similar to alkaline phosphatase (ALP) in detecting disease of the biliary tract. Indeed, the two markers correlate well, though there are conflicting data about whether GGT has better sensitivity.[12][13] In general, ALP is still the first test for biliary disease. The main value of GGT over ALP is in verifying that ALP elevations are, in fact, due to biliary disease"
"More recently, slightly elevated serum GGT has also been found to correlate with cardiovascular diseases and is under active investigation as a cardiovascular risk marker. GGT in fact accumulates in atherosclerotic plaques,[14] suggesting a potential role in pathogenesis of cardiovascular diseases"
"If it is unclear why alkaline phosphatase is elevated, isoenzyme studies using electrophoresis can confirm the source of the ALP. Skelphosphatase (which is localized in osteoblasts and extracellular layers of newly synthesized matrix) is released into circulation by a yet unclear mechanism.[44] Placental alkaline phosphatase is elevated in seminomas[45] and active forms of rickets, as well as in the following diseases and conditions:[46]
"Elevated serum GGT activity can be found in diseases of the liver, biliary system, and pancreas. In this respect, it is similar to alkaline phosphatase (ALP) in detecting disease of the biliary tract. Indeed, the two markers correlate well, though there are conflicting data about whether GGT has better sensitivity.[12][13] In general, ALP is still the first test for biliary disease. The main value of GGT over ALP is in verifying that ALP elevations are, in fact, due to biliary disease"
"More recently, slightly elevated serum GGT has also been found to correlate with cardiovascular diseases and is under active investigation as a cardiovascular risk marker. GGT in fact accumulates in atherosclerotic plaques,[14] suggesting a potential role in pathogenesis of cardiovascular diseases"
"If it is unclear why alkaline phosphatase is elevated, isoenzyme studies using electrophoresis can confirm the source of the ALP. Skelphosphatase (which is localized in osteoblasts and extracellular layers of newly synthesized matrix) is released into circulation by a yet unclear mechanism.[44] Placental alkaline phosphatase is elevated in seminomas[45] and active forms of rickets, as well as in the following diseases and conditions:[46]
- Biliary obstruction
- Bone conditions
- Osteoblastic bone tumors
- Osteomalacia
- Osteoporosis[47]
- Liver disease or hepatitis
- Leukemia
- Leukemoid reaction
- Lymphoma
- Paget's disease
- Sarcoidosis
- Hyperthyroidism
- Hyperparathyroidism
- Myocardial infarction
- Pregnancy
Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
surely this is worthy of concern.
Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
Regarding BMI: as i already said GGT and BMI has a inverse relationship. so if they people in that study were overweight and still had high GGT levels that is very worrying and indicates A even stronger affect of kava consumption and GGT. thank you for bringing this up.
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
Have you considered contacting WHO about your findings?
I'm sure the New Zealand Ministry of Health would love to hear about how this beverage is causing all kinds of damage that their doctors have not detected in their tens of thousands of kava consumers.
Fiji would love to hear about how their hundreds of thousands of kava drinkers must be suffering all sorts of organ damage due to this apparently liver, kidney, and heart destroying beverage.
All the medical authorities in multiple countries with large populations of kava drinkers, and the WHO scientists who analyzed the studies before declaring kava safe really need to hear about this.
Idiots the lot of them. Thank god we have a guy on the internet here to prove them wrong!
I'm sure the New Zealand Ministry of Health would love to hear about how this beverage is causing all kinds of damage that their doctors have not detected in their tens of thousands of kava consumers.
Fiji would love to hear about how their hundreds of thousands of kava drinkers must be suffering all sorts of organ damage due to this apparently liver, kidney, and heart destroying beverage.
All the medical authorities in multiple countries with large populations of kava drinkers, and the WHO scientists who analyzed the studies before declaring kava safe really need to hear about this.
Idiots the lot of them. Thank god we have a guy on the internet here to prove them wrong!
Kava Drinker
Account Placeholder
In this study
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Kava_beverage_observational_study%20(1).pdf
the mean GGT value of kava drinkers was 127 S.D+140 and the mean of the control group GGT was 31. this is more than 4 times greater than the control. the reference is 0-30 so the kava drinkers GGT is way above 2N =60. there is a serious concern usually if GGT is 2 times the upper limit.
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Liver_Function_Test_Abnormalities_in_Users_of_Aqueous_Kava_Extracts.pdf
in this study the mean GGT value of kava drinkers who had not drank in the last 24 hours was 78 and the mean of the control group GGT was 34. this is also clinically relevant.
so what if it is reversible. if you drink kava every day/second day your GGT will always be high then.
to bad the WHO did not report the justification for this as it breaks medical standards.
you consumed kava not very often and your GGT was still elevated.
my friend was giving me the kava and he got it from cactuskava he told me. maybe there chemotype is bad. what kavalactones should i look for kava to be high in to minimise high enzyme levels/cholestasis.?
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Kava_beverage_observational_study%20(1).pdf
the mean GGT value of kava drinkers was 127 S.D+140 and the mean of the control group GGT was 31. this is more than 4 times greater than the control. the reference is 0-30 so the kava drinkers GGT is way above 2N =60. there is a serious concern usually if GGT is 2 times the upper limit.
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Liver_Function_Test_Abnormalities_in_Users_of_Aqueous_Kava_Extracts.pdf
in this study the mean GGT value of kava drinkers who had not drank in the last 24 hours was 78 and the mean of the control group GGT was 34. this is also clinically relevant.
so what if it is reversible. if you drink kava every day/second day your GGT will always be high then.
to bad the WHO did not report the justification for this as it breaks medical standards.
you consumed kava not very often and your GGT was still elevated.
my friend was giving me the kava and he got it from cactuskava he told me. maybe there chemotype is bad. what kavalactones should i look for kava to be high in to minimise high enzyme levels/cholestasis.?
Thank you for all these reports and all your input. It has become clear from the liver reports from your doctor that you should stay away from kava, just like your doctor said you should do. I hope the best for you, aloha.
Chris
@Kava Drinker I thought I was a fairly obsessive worrier, but you've definitely surpassed me 10 fold. A true master of making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The quintessential internet self diagnoser, googling basic symptoms, resulting in a certainty of death. I see you've posted on Reddit's drug forum in the past too, exhibiting similar behaviors, fearfully asking safety questions about drugs that are already generally considered safe and posting links to studies that happen to show possible dangers in certain circumstances. You've cracked the case dude, everything's going to kill you. It might be time to seal yourself up in a bubble with a stash of Magnolia bark, Benzos, Lunesta & Baclofen.
Please tell us a bit about your kava consumption and blood work history...
Those results are were during my 3rd YEAR into becoming a HIGH-DOSE daily kava drinker, with only a couple days of abstinence prior. Largely consuming heavy varieties, often adulterated with tudei kava and occasionally drinking liquor on weekends with my friends. And all of this was preceded by a decade of drinking liquor regularly or kava occasionally. GGT is not a part of my test, because no one cares when everything else is on point and you're not exhibiting any signs of requiring further investigation. Doctors that see elevated GGT only, and no other red flags, typically just assume the patient's diet, a supplement they take or their natural biology is causing it and don't even worry about it.
I think it's likely that the elevated GGT in kava drinkers is just an indicator of your liver doing it's job. I see that GGT is involved with the metabolization of Glutathione and the process of moving Gultathione into cells in response to oxidative stress. Since there is some evidence that the FK-B in kava (and more so in tudei kava) can cause oxidative stress, then it stands to reason that the liver would respond by using GGT to trigger the Glutathione to help protect against oxidative stress, during which time the GGT could leak into your system and make it detectable in higher amounts than usual. There is no evidence that this action actually has caused any serious damage to long time kava drinkers, but endlessly depleting your Glutathione doesn't sound good, which is why it's recommended to take occasional breaks, take supplemental Glutathione or eat foods that help supply your body with it.
In your way of looking at things, you've found a couple studies that show raised GGT in kava drinkers, then you've looked up the laundry list of illnesses that GGT can be at least partially associated with and somehow mapped them all onto kava drinkers simply because of the association with GGT. But no studies ever directly link kava to any organ damage or death under any normal circumstances. The very few deaths or injuries are always attributed to either concurrent drug intake with kava, possibly in combination with bad products and/or 'immunologically mediated idiosyncratic mechanism'. Rare personal problems that will always be evident in some small percentage of the population.
Where are all the deaths and organ damage ? If it's as serious as you believe, where is the physical proof? Do you understand how much kava is being consumed by pacific islanders and how long they've been drinking it? Do you know how strong and high dosed the kava is in Vanuatu, that's consumed every single night. Do you know how many of us here on the kava forums have been drinking nearly every day for years ?
Why are we all fine? Why doesn't our liver enzyme count even raise our doctors eyebrow ? Why aren't the Pacific islands filled with an epidemic of liver failure and kava related GGT deaths ? Considering the amount, frequency and long history of kava drinking in these regions it should be overwhelmingly evident, but it isn't, because under normal circumstances, for the vast majority of the population, kava is one of the most relatively benign but effective psychoactive substances, even when consumed regularly and at high doses.
The quintessential internet self diagnoser, googling basic symptoms, resulting in a certainty of death. I see you've posted on Reddit's drug forum in the past too, exhibiting similar behaviors, fearfully asking safety questions about drugs that are already generally considered safe and posting links to studies that happen to show possible dangers in certain circumstances. You've cracked the case dude, everything's going to kill you. It might be time to seal yourself up in a bubble with a stash of Magnolia bark, Benzos, Lunesta & Baclofen.
Please tell us a bit about your kava consumption and blood work history...
- How much kava do you drink per session ?
- How many days per week did you drink kava ?
- Are you also taking other herbs or meds around the time of drinking kava, even if not exactly at the same time ?
- How many liver/blood tests have you taken while kava being the only drug, herb or med you've been consuming, what are the results ?
- How many liver/blood tests have you taken without kava or any other recently consumed substances?
- How many liver/blood tests do you have from periods where you've regular consumed magnolia bark, benzos, lunesta and/or baclofen ?
- Have you been tested to find out if you have any enzyme deficiencies or genetic mutations that would hinder metabolization of certain things?
ALT 22 (in range 9-46)
ALP 64 (in range 40-115)
AST 20 (in range 10-40)
Bilirubin 0.8 (in range 0.2-1.2)
ALP 64 (in range 40-115)
AST 20 (in range 10-40)
Bilirubin 0.8 (in range 0.2-1.2)
I think it's likely that the elevated GGT in kava drinkers is just an indicator of your liver doing it's job. I see that GGT is involved with the metabolization of Glutathione and the process of moving Gultathione into cells in response to oxidative stress. Since there is some evidence that the FK-B in kava (and more so in tudei kava) can cause oxidative stress, then it stands to reason that the liver would respond by using GGT to trigger the Glutathione to help protect against oxidative stress, during which time the GGT could leak into your system and make it detectable in higher amounts than usual. There is no evidence that this action actually has caused any serious damage to long time kava drinkers, but endlessly depleting your Glutathione doesn't sound good, which is why it's recommended to take occasional breaks, take supplemental Glutathione or eat foods that help supply your body with it.
In your way of looking at things, you've found a couple studies that show raised GGT in kava drinkers, then you've looked up the laundry list of illnesses that GGT can be at least partially associated with and somehow mapped them all onto kava drinkers simply because of the association with GGT. But no studies ever directly link kava to any organ damage or death under any normal circumstances. The very few deaths or injuries are always attributed to either concurrent drug intake with kava, possibly in combination with bad products and/or 'immunologically mediated idiosyncratic mechanism'. Rare personal problems that will always be evident in some small percentage of the population.
Where are all the deaths and organ damage ? If it's as serious as you believe, where is the physical proof? Do you understand how much kava is being consumed by pacific islanders and how long they've been drinking it? Do you know how strong and high dosed the kava is in Vanuatu, that's consumed every single night. Do you know how many of us here on the kava forums have been drinking nearly every day for years ?
Why are we all fine? Why doesn't our liver enzyme count even raise our doctors eyebrow ? Why aren't the Pacific islands filled with an epidemic of liver failure and kava related GGT deaths ? Considering the amount, frequency and long history of kava drinking in these regions it should be overwhelmingly evident, but it isn't, because under normal circumstances, for the vast majority of the population, kava is one of the most relatively benign but effective psychoactive substances, even when consumed regularly and at high doses.
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Kava Drinker
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Thanks for your replies. I am learning more. I will tell you about my enzymes later but it's a very long story.
You suggested taking a oral glutathione supplement but I thought the bioavailability is so poor this would make no difference to your liver ?
Also do you know what your enYme results were like before you drank kava?
How long did you give a break of stopping using kava before the test and also what it not be better to keep drinking kava through the test because would you not like to get a picture of how your liver is most of the time if you drink it every day rather than a false picture of it.
You suggested taking a oral glutathione supplement but I thought the bioavailability is so poor this would make no difference to your liver ?
Also do you know what your enYme results were like before you drank kava?
How long did you give a break of stopping using kava before the test and also what it not be better to keep drinking kava through the test because would you not like to get a picture of how your liver is most of the time if you drink it every day rather than a false picture of it.