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Kava Physiology Two-day, or not two-day, that is the question.

Discussion in 'Kava Lounge' started by Andrew Procyk, Oct 20, 2013.

  1. Andrew Procyk

    Andrew Procyk Noble Kava Kava Vendor

    This is a direct response in my most recent email exchange with Dr. Lebot to the two-day kava question and FKB.
    -------------------------------
    "Dear Andrew

    As far as Vanuatu is concerned, am afraid that there is limited room for manoeuvre, as BY LAW, two-days varieties are not legal and should not be sold neither exported
    so if this person sells two-days and knows it, he is dealing with an illegal product and should not do that

    in order to be on the safe side and to avoid future accidents it is better to trade only noble varieties, as we know that the consumption of two days is harmful for the consumer

    cheers"
    ---------------------------

    Now, of someone gets two-day kava from PNG, that would be legal - but would it be SAFE? Not according to Vincent. Also, to say a kava is "borderline" two day is like that "little bit pregnant" saying. It is, or it isn't.

    Particularly with all the crappy press going around, shouldn't we be moving to try and avoid any additional controversies?

    Just urging caution instead of exploration, and tired of all this "danger" crap already.

    Iahi
  2. pjim

    pjim Member

    Andrew, I had a question. It is my understanding from what I've been reading that all kava contains this FKB, but that the "noble" varieties contain much less. Is there any research regarding this threshold level? That is, is all kava bad for you and is some just not-so-bad? Does all kava tax the liver in some way?
  3. Andrew Procyk

    Andrew Procyk Noble Kava Kava Vendor

    In one of the videos I posted with Lebot, the computer screen in the Ag. Lab shows the measure of FKB in various varieties, after the 1-minute mark, here:



    There is another video I have yet to upload, where it shows the format of the analysis in peaks. Whatever the units are, the tudei peaks of FKB rise to near the top of the screen from baseline, similar to the parabolic "post-industrialization population-increase" curve you are probably familiar with, the pure sample is around the 1/2 way point, and the noble peaks are little molehills. (The visual difference is striking.)

    I will try to have it up soon enough - just been really busy. Nonetheless, the difference is striking enough for Dr. Lebot to recommend against it. That said, I am not sure if in the end, when you drink 10 shells of noble, if it could be said to be equal to one shell of tudei - if that is the sort of answer you are looking for. But, that is part of the reason it is important to get the HP-TCL fully rolling there. Nonetheless, SOON!

    Thanks for your interest!
  4. meow

    meow Member

    Ive always loved tueday varieties and always had a interest in the flavo kavains, and the question about how much and how toxic it would be if it's in all kavas anyway.
  5. Paradise Kava

    Paradise Kava Honolulu, HI Kava Vendor

    Ed Johnston wrote this morning asking me to correct a small mistake I made. He and Jerry started the Association for Hawaiian 'Awa, not the 'Awa Development Council

    Regarding FKB, here is his exact response.

    "As for the "Noble-Kava/Flavokawain Debates" I am not convinced that there is anything what-so-ever problematic about Flavokawains
    (Unless they have gone through solvent extraction!) ;
    There is plenty of research showing flavokawains are good blood thinners and may even be what is helping suppress cancer tumors.
    The label- Noble Kavas can be misleading and I agree with Vincent when he says-- other areas of the Pacific have traditionally consumed kavas which are equal to Nobles, just not called Nobles.
    I just don't want people to think that the only good kavas have to be legally, Noble Kavas from Vanuatu.
    That would be very disrespectful to the multitude of indigenous peoples who (outside of Vanuatu) have their own cultivars they have consumed for a thousand years or more.
    --Ed"

    He also suggested I go to Fiji for an applied Chemistry Conference which also hosts a Kava Symposium this March.

    Who wants to join me?

    Adil Ghiasi
  6. meow

    meow Member

    Yea why not drink a cancer reducing substance just because it's possibly a bit liver toxic to some ppl?
  7. Bula Kava House

    Bula Kava House Portland, OR

    Finally, I've been saying something very similar about this debate since it was brought up here.

    And Adil, if you're going to Fiji in March I really will go with you. Keep me posted.
  8. kavadude

    kavadude Administrator Moderator

    Adil, I'd be interested to hear why solvent extractions change the equation. Is he saying that flavokawains are not present in aqueous extractions, or solvent extraction does something to them to make them unsafe...?
  9. Paradise Kava

    Paradise Kava Honolulu, HI Kava Vendor

    Judd, I am considering it since a friend of ours, Chengguo Xing from U. Minnesota will be giving a talk there. He is one of the leading Kava scientists in America today.
    There's a one day Kava Symposium on the future of Kava's Research within those days.
    I'll keep you posted.


    Kavadude, in 2006, when we developed our extracts, we chose the CO2 extracts because of the FKB research we had access to (Chengguo and others helped with that) that showed the dangers of solvent based kava extracts, or what I casually refer to as "blanket extractions".
    Simply put, solvents are powerful and pull everything from most plant matter; FKB, kavalactones, other undesirables, it's all gets in there.

    Aqueous is far more delicate as an extraction in general.
  10. Steve

    Steve Ozia - KavaKava Candy Kava Vendor

    endwatcher and Paradise Kava like this.
  11. If yall do end up headin' down Fiji way make sure you give some Wakacon a try. That stuff affects me for 24 hours. Then again I'm very sensitive or efficient. This brings up an interesting point. Human responses to internal chemical changes vary widely from individual to individual. Responses to strength training, for example, vary very widely. One person may recuperate in 48 hours, another may require as much as 3 weeks as a result of the exact same routine. Thats over a 500% difference. You'll never see that fact in any physiology textbook.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  12. Prince Philip

    Prince Philip Member

    One thing to consider is weight. If you're obese, your liver tests are going to show you have an issue. Your issue is that your liver has too much fat in it, just like other parts of your body. With the American obesity epidemic, this confounds kava's effect on the liver and makes individual testing (in other words, what is kava doing to ME), difficult at best.
  13. Paradise Kava

    Paradise Kava Honolulu, HI Kava Vendor

    It's good to see the Fox back in action :woot:
  14. Prince Philip

    Prince Philip Member

    The main thing I have to wonder about the wild, more powerful variaties of kava is... did it kill the Denisovans? I mean, here's this species of humans, contemporary with Neanderthals and Sapiens, and based on the rather high degree of Denisovan DNA in Australians and Melanesians (like 4-7% or so), that means this species ranged in kava-growing territories, and became aroused enough to have sex with our species. But, they're all dead. Was it the kava? And, if so, could a sudden reversal of 3500 years of artificial selection to produce kava suitable for daily drinking end us as a species?
    bobarctor likes this.
  15. Andrew Procyk

    Andrew Procyk Noble Kava Kava Vendor

    been a while since I have been on here - but been very busy dealing with the humdrum of being owned by a business.

    Well, here I am in Fiji for the Kava Symposium, and wouldn't you know it - Dr. Schmidt is supposed to give a talk tomorrow on this very question. He even plans to address the the 25mg/kg dosage that "seemed high" which another vendor told me. We will see. I personally did not get my own abstract in on time - focusing on the chemotherapeutic possibilities of the FK's, but might still get to present something if I write fast enough!

    It will be nice to see if any of the other folks from the rock make it out here. Wish you all the best. Planning on filming - as per usual - and will post the abstracts, accepted and those not, with permission from FNU.

    Cheers!
    AP
  16. Kapmcrunk

    Kapmcrunk The Kap'm Is In KavaForums Creator

    We greatly look forward to it. Thanks for the update!
  17. javaman

    javaman Don't Worry, Be Happy! Chief Mixologist

    Now why didn't I ever have substitute teachers like Prince Phillips? I mighta actually learned something.:D
  18. kavadude

    kavadude Administrator Moderator

    Andrew, good to have you around man, I was worried we chased you off with all our silliness. Looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
  19. Andrew Procyk

    Andrew Procyk Noble Kava Kava Vendor

    Well, imagine my shock when not a single other kava vendor attended ICONAC and the kava symposium in Fiji! (But I am sure they all care very very much. It is not like I did not have to drop everything to do so... but then again, I was an academic long before I was a businessman, so I suppose my priorities are different.)

    Making it as quick as possible - As per FKB:Work is being done on establishing the Codex for kava, which will absolutely draw a line of demarcation between "Noble" (argue semantics if you want, ladies) and Tudei kavas, as per what is considered suitable for consumption. Under this Codex, much of what many vendors are selling would not be considered safe. As was presented at the conference, at 11mg/kg FKB has shown hepatotoxicity, in-vivo, in the newest mouse study. (Apparently, this was not published yet, as journals now want to know mechanism of action.) Given mice metabolize more rapidly than humans, it is likely safe to assume even lower levels can harm human liver cells. It is also a fact that FKB occurs in non "Noble" (That was the word Schmidt, and other researchers used, so it is the work I will use) at 10-20 times the amounts it does in those kavas that have been considered drinkable for generations - (regardless of what YOU want to call them.)

    So, perhaps your vendor does not know any better? Perhaps they do, but are rationalizing poisoning you? But of course, I can't be SURE of that. I can't possibly know the motivations of others. But perhaps, PERHAPS the fast money is just too damn good with the "high-octane" kava to play it safe? I don't know. We ultimately "don't know" a whole lot... but, essentially, we have a pretty damn good idea that we should play it safe. Those at the conference, who apparently do the most research in the field, are recommending all the more strongly - after every study - to avoid kava high in FKB.

    I look forward to hearing the explanations of why Isa, Tudei, Pailisi, etc. should be consumed from those who, as I see it, are willing to roll the dice with the health of their drinkers and the market as a whole.
    I also look forward to co-authoring an upcoming article on the subject with a very well known researcher, and to meeting with Dr. Lebot again tomorrow.

    Additionally, I look forward to participating in a research project where I will likely be sending urine samples of my kava-bar customers to labs for bioanalysis. I look forward to others following suit... but I am not holding my breath. I imagine the participation will be as heavy by vendors as was their Symposium attendance.

    Nonetheless, I am tired of arguing with walls. If I am the only one to do what I see as playing it safe, so be it.
    You cannot teach someone who does not want to be taught.
    And when there is a financial incentive to remain uneducated, it makes it all the more difficult.
    ...But I am sure everyone has the best interests of their customers at heart. We all want to remain in business indefinitely, right?


    Good luck, everyone,
    Andrew
  20. kavadude

    kavadude Administrator Moderator

    Me too. Noble, tudei, whatever. Is it safe to drink or not? It is pretty clear there is a class of kava that is not safe for human consumption.

    Could you please ask Dr. Lebot if he's done any more work on the qualitative test? Particularly whether the color of the result is as good of an indicator of FKB content as it seems to be.

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