Perplexed by Tudei Controversy

[HeadHodge]

...I don't really understand your point. Do you want to discourage people from trusting Garry's tests? Do you want people to disregard his results and look instead for vendor'provided chemotypes that they could then verify... with Garry? ...

I've simply reported the results of @Deleted User's tests and have stated my assessment. And I've already stated his testing is an important function (you seem to be ignoring me). And I've already stated my point, so my advice is that you slowly re-read it again.
I am proposing a sane way for vendors to sell whatever they like while someone like @kavassuer can qualitatively review their products and @Deleted User (+ other 3rd parties) can quantitatively review the products. I have no idea why an intelligent person like you can't understand that. I don't expect you to agree or disagree, but I would expect you to take the time to understand what I am trying to say.

 

[HeadHodge]

There are multiple problems with this system:

1. Chemotype is not a reliable indicator of noble vs two day (see post #144).

That's untrue, I've already shown you the numbers of your own making that show that. The only deviation is of 11 year waka, which suggests that since no one has any idea what makes the color orange, there is possibly a basic flaw in the acetone test itself.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I've simply reported the results of @Deleted User's tests and have stated my assessment. And I've already stated his testing is an important function (you seem to be ignoring me). And I've already stated my point, so my advice is that you slowly re-read it again.
I am proposing a sane way for vendors to sell whatever they like while someone like @kavassuer can qualitatively review their products and @Deleted User (+ other 3rd parties) can quantitatively review the products. I have no idea why an intelligent person like you can't understand that. I don't expect you to agree or disagree, but I would expect you to take the time to understand what I am trying to say.

I did read your proposal. You are suggesting dropping tudei and noble labels and propose focusing on chemotypes instead. I myself and others have explained here why such a system wouldn't be good enough for us. Vendors are free to listen to your proposal. We will see if their customers will agree that seeing 3 digits on a package is a sufficient sign of quality and purity or if they choose to buy those kavas that are certified to be noble and free of any other impurities.

In any case, it seems that you have found a good system for choosing your own kava, so I hope it works for you. Cheers

 

[HeadHodge]

...In any case, it seems that you have found a good system for choosing your own kava, so I hope it works for you. Cheers

As well as you.

 

[HeadHodge]

11 Year is not a "deviation", and certainly not the only kava that I (and others) have tested that fails acetone yet doesn't have DHM in the first three. As mentioned earlier, "Mita" (246351) is classified as two day both in "Origins" and in the Kava Act - and it fails acetone.

There's also another consideration: Exporters have now refined their noble/two day blending process with the specific intent of keeping DHM out of the first three. This has been verified by several sources and multiple tests. Two day effects have been reported from use of such kava, so that alone marks a fatal flaw in your system.

I've reported everything from your site, so am I missing other data??

 

[HeadHodge]

The samples shown on the TK site are a small percentage of the kava I've tested, but even using only these your system doesn't seem practical.

You state "If you are trying to stick to using Noble kava, then it's also easy to see that the best choices would be anything with a '4' and a '2' and a '6' on the product tag."

This excludes quite a few products that easily pass acetone, meaning I rate these noble where you do not. Are you trying to be more restrictive than current standards, or are you just trying to avoid using the terminology of "noble" and "two day"?

Are you serious?? I really can't tell. I'm saying stay away from the number '5' and I don't give a crap if it's noble or not.

 

[kasa_balavu]

The University of Fiji at Suva uses "Institute of Applied Sciences SOP" for no reason I can comprehend

The University of Fiji isn't based in Suva. Perhaps you mean the Fiji National University. Fiji National University is only a few years old, and apparently they've borrowed Standard Operating Procedures from the Institute of Applied Sciences.

The Institute of Applied Sciences is the consulting arm of the Science, Technology, & Environment department at the University of the South Pacific (USP).

 

[HeadHodge]

I think our confusion may lie with the very concept that chemotype denotes nobility. It simply does not. That concept was introduced by a certain vendor in an attempt to "prove" noblility, and it appears you now adhere to both the concept and the reverse of the concept.

You seem to be saying "Since 246/426 is noble, 245 is not". In fact, neither is a true indicator. There are noble 245's, and there are two day 246's. There are also two day 245's and noble 246's.

Am I getting close?

No you're not even close. I'm saying that if you want to avoid potentially bad kava with tudei, then avoid a chemotype that contains the number '5' in the first three digits of it's chemotype. And I'm also saying that if you want to be safe stick with chemotypes that contain '246' in it. I'm not saying these are are absolutes but rather guidelines. And as far as tudei with a chemo of '246' I do not see that in your data, even though you say that. I'll be happy to adjust my statements with additional data that I currently do not have.

 

[HeadHodge]

Sure, you can do that. I've explained why it won't work every way I can think of, but you can do it. Personally I'd go by the qualitative test, and there is an example of a 246 that failed in the data you're looking at. I have lots more data than what you see on the TK site, but numbered exporter samples probably wouldn't be very meaningful to you. See if this will work:

Garry: "At this point, is it safe to say that an acetone test producing coloration equivalent to a known two day is verification that the sample is two day, regardless of chemotype?"
Dr. Lebot: "I think that what it is safe to say is that the coloration corresponds to high FK content plus other non-identified pigments, and noble varieties have low FK content. So yes, for example, everything with a color similar to Isa or Palisi is potentially dangerous."

And if you'd prefer to use the term "potentially dangerous" instead of "two day", I'm fine with that too!

I personally would like to publicly see the 'lots more data' you speak of.

 

[HeadHodge]

Ummm. Just looking for data that refutes my position. I wouldn't think that to be a difficult task. I'm really talking basic stuff here, nothing complicated or obfuscated in nature.

 

[HeadHodge]

...there are two day 246's..
Am I getting close?

Ok I'm trying to make this easy. What's an example of a 246 chemotype that is two day?

 

[HeadHodge]

Mita, 246531 (Source: Origins, Lebot)
11 Year Waka, 246531 (Source: TK)

I've already mentioned 11 Year, so that's nothing new and have already discussed my thoughts for the coloration anomaly. That could be the case for Mita as well (i.e. 11 year under a different name as I'm sure you notice the chemotypes are identical). Besides color, what other attributes of Mita have you measured (or observed) that lead you to believe that the product is tudei?