Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

GHK's Boiled kava Method - Aftermath

Palmetto

Palmetto

Thank God!
I've noticed the same thing when using higher efficiency extraction methods. Kavain must be slightly more water soluble than the other kavalactones, thus if you increase the total amount of kavalactones extracted, the proportion of less water soluble chemicals will go up. Thus the chemotype will appear to change. I wonder if this is the reason why Deleted User gets different chemotypes than what some others report. If he is using organic solvents to extract the kavalactones prior to assaying them, then you would expect the chemotype to apeear with less kavain than if water was used as the solvent. It has been reported that flavokawain proportions also go up with higher extraction efficiencies as well.

"Extract chemical composition was strongly influenced by extraction solvent. Metabolic fingerprints from aqueous and ethanolic extracts plotted in principal component space formed two distinct groups driven by extraction solvent where the use of either 100% water or 95% ethanol was responsible for 71.1% of the variation among all samples explained by PC1 (Figure S2). The detected ion m/z, retention time pairs that contribute the most to the loadings for PC1 were 315.1132 m/z, 9.1823 min and 285.1021 m/z, 9.4699 min, which correspond to the masses and retention times of FLKA and FLKB, respectively. Compound quantification showed that extracts prepared with 95% ethanol resulted in higher yields and greater consistency among replicates, compared with extracts prepared with 100% water. This result is similar to previous studies that found water produced kava extracts with decreased compound concentrations compared to extracts prepared with ethanol. Specifically, K, DHK, M, and DHM concentrations were 1.5–5x higher in samples extracted with 95% ethanol than in those extracted with 100% water. The concentrations of FLKA & FLKB were up to fifty times higher in samples extracted by 95% ethanol than in those extracted with 100% water although a significant number of the water extracts contained concentrations of FLKA or FLKB that were below detectable limits (Figure 1). Extracts prepared with 95% ethanol consistently contained greater quantities of FLKA and FLKB than corresponding water extracts, and were highly variable across kava products (ranging from undetectable concentrations up to 14.7 ppm"

Measuring the Chemical and Cytotoxic Variability of Commercially Available Kava (Piper methysticum G. Forster)
 
Palmetto

Palmetto

Thank God!
So using too good of an extraction method (CO2, boiling water, ethanol, lecithin, etc.) turns a noble kava beverage into a not quite so noble beverage in the sense that the flavokawain levels rise dramatically, thus liver aggravation increases.
 
Groggy

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Palmetto said:
So using too good of an extraction method (CO2, boiling water, ethanol, lecithin, etc.) turns a noble kava beverage into a not quite so noble beverage in the sense that the flavokawain levels rise dramatically, thus liver aggravation increases.
Click to expand...
That's fascinating, had no idea, thanks for sharing. I guess I should think twice about boiling kava.
 
Palmetto

Palmetto

Thank God!
There is probably a sweet spot as far as extraction efficiency for not raising the flavokawain levels too high. Perhaps boiling water might better than using moderately polar solvents, such as ethanol or using amphipathic emulsifiers such as lecithin. Hot water has more Brownian motion at a molecular level, thus more agitation at the molecular level. This is different in a chemical sense than a solubility partitioning effect from using a different solvent. I've been testing a 10% ethanol 5% lecithin aqueous solution recently, and I'm possibly going to rethink this. The effects are less heady when I use the ethanol + lecithin compared to when I don't.

Getting back to the point where the article mentions that flavokawain levels could not even be detected in some noble kava strains by the water extraction method, certain cultivars might have such low flavokawain levels to begin with that higher extraction methods are still safe.
 
Alia

Alia

'Awa Grower/Collector
Palmetto said:
I've noticed the same thing when using higher efficiency extraction methods. Kavain must be slightly more water soluble than the other kavalactones, thus if you increase the total amount of kavalactones extracted, the proportion of less water soluble chemicals will go up. Thus the chemotype will appear to change. I wonder if this is the reason why Deleted User gets different chemotypes than what some others report. If he is using organic solvents to extract the kavalactones prior to assaying them, then you would expect the chemotype to apeear with less kavain than if water was used as the solvent. It has been reported that flavokawain proportions also go up with higher extraction efficiencies as well.

"Extract chemical composition was strongly influenced by extraction solvent. Metabolic fingerprints from aqueous and ethanolic extracts plotted in principal component space formed two distinct groups driven by extraction solvent where the use of either 100% water or 95% ethanol was responsible for 71.1% of the variation among all samples explained by PC1 (Figure S2). The detected ion m/z, retention time pairs that contribute the most to the loadings for PC1 were 315.1132 m/z, 9.1823 min and 285.1021 m/z, 9.4699 min, which correspond to the masses and retention times of FLKA and FLKB, respectively. Compound quantification showed that extracts prepared with 95% ethanol resulted in higher yields and greater consistency among replicates, compared with extracts prepared with 100% water. This result is similar to previous studies that found water produced kava extracts with decreased compound concentrations compared to extracts prepared with ethanol. Specifically, K, DHK, M, and DHM concentrations were 1.5–5x higher in samples extracted with 95% ethanol than in those extracted with 100% water. The concentrations of FLKA & FLKB were up to fifty times higher in samples extracted by 95% ethanol than in those extracted with 100% water although a significant number of the water extracts contained concentrations of FLKA or FLKB that were below detectable limits (Figure 1). Extracts prepared with 95% ethanol consistently contained greater quantities of FLKA and FLKB than corresponding water extracts, and were highly variable across kava products (ranging from undetectable concentrations up to 14.7 ppm"

Measuring the Chemical and Cytotoxic Variability of Commercially Available Kava (Piper methysticum G. Forster)
Click to expand...
That study you quote (Measuring the Chemical and Cytotoxic...) is a fascinating, and often overlooked, paper. She, and the other authors, took a long time and did some in-depth research. Thanks for reminding us about it! I think Dr. Martin was a Speaker at the KavaCon 2015 in Honolulu, as was GHK.
 
Edward

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
@MudMonkey that looks really muddy! Did you not fancy diluting it a bit?

Palmetto said:
So using too good of an extraction method (CO2, boiling water, ethanol, lecithin, etc.) turns a noble kava beverage into a not quite so noble beverage in the sense that the flavokawain levels rise dramatically, thus liver aggravation increases.
Click to expand...
This may be why Deleted User says the safest way to drink kava is the traditionally prepared way which is just with water? I suppose where it is traditionally drunk they don't need to worry so much about extraction methods because they have so much of it there, just pulp it, mix it with water, strain it and drink it. Us poor souls who pay our money for bags of ground dry stuff are the ones more concerned with getting maximum extraction out of it.

Another thing that comes to mind is that if flavokawains are inherent in the root but they are not highly extracted by trad prep then what happens when you take root and micronize it? Presumably you are consuming all of the components, good and bad? Or is it the case that more flavoawain is found in the makas which is removed in most micro but mixed in with your normal kava root?
 
Alia

Alia

'Awa Grower/Collector
Palmetto said:
So using too good of an extraction method (CO2, boiling water, ethanol, lecithin, etc.) turns a noble kava beverage into a not quite so noble beverage in the sense that the flavokawain levels rise dramatically, thus liver aggravation increases.
Click to expand...
This is a very relevant area of discussion for this forum (in my humble opinion) . We have much talk/writing here about - various extracts, CO2 included and various methods of preparation. Inspired by Palmetto's post here, I reviewed many of the published studies I have on the "liver issue" "Noble Kavas" etc, by such authors as Lebot, Teschke, Sarris, to name a few. All seem to suggest "water-based" "aqueous" "traditional kava beverage" tap water temp. The most noted, also my opinion, is Dr. Helen Turner who strongly suggests Kava's- " entourage effect" where she explains the wholistic (sp?) [again tap-water based kava beverage] as being essential to the kava experience and sites numerous benefits not found in any extraction method (ie. where kavalactones alone are the only focus) .
 
Groggy

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Edward said:
@MudMonkey that looks really muddy! Did you not fancy diluting it a bitt?
may be why Deleted User says the safest way to drink kava is the traditionally prepared way which is just with water? I suppose where it is traditionally drunk they don't need to worry so much about extraction methods because they have so much of it there, just pulp it, mix it with water, strain it and drink it. Us poor souls who pay our money for bags of ground dry stuff are the ones more concerned with getting maximum extraction out of it.

Another thing that comes to mind is that if flavokawains are inherent in the root but they are not highly extracted by trad prep then what happens when you take root and micronize it? Presumably you are consuming all of the components, good and bad? Or is it the case that more flavoawain is found in the makas which is removed in most micro but mixed in with your normal kava root?
Click to expand...
I added four Ice Cubes because it was so thick.
@Alia I agree, I originally posted this because I thought it was interesting that the boiling results were so thick but I'm glad that Palmetto posted this information, a lot of really useful knowledge, I'm learning a lot!
 
Palmetto

Palmetto

Thank God!
One thing I have noticed is that when I drink some kava that has sat around for a couple days, it seems a lot stronger. Also when I drink out of a cup that I had been drinking out of the day before and didn't finish the sample, then my legs can get a bit wobbly, whereas otherwise, I tend to feel very mild effects from large doses. I've read that saliva is believed to activate constituents in the aqueous prep (kavalactones or otherwise) that make it have a greater effect than when there is no saliva present. I think I believe it, although I cannot prove it to myself yet. Thus there might be ways of having stronger kava without increasing the flavokawain B/C levels.

I do think it would be nice if someone examined the different extraction techniques mentioned in this post (CO2, hot water, traditional prep, ethanol, lecithin) for kavalactone vs. FKB levels. Similar studies have partially overlapped this, but not systematically side by side comparisons all at once. One of the things are slightly soluble chemical constituents in a solution: there is an equilibrium of solute molecules entering the solution and leaving the solution. If you add another component that preferentially absorbs the moderately polar molecules (KLs and FKB), then you are creating a nonpolar environment for kavalactones to partition into, rather than back into the powder. Since the proportion of kavalactones to flavokawain is determined by their relative solubilities in water, you might be able to maintain that proportion and achieve a higher yield, without increasing the proportion of flavokawain. In this regard, lecithin may be safer than ethanol, since the lecithin micelles have a hydrophobic interior which allows for kavalactones to partition into from the aqueous environment. To state it more simply, ethanol or acetone help dissolve, while lecithin sponges up what is dissolved. I hope I didn't make the concept too confusing.
 
Groggy

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Palmetto said:
One thing I have noticed is that when I drink some kava that has sat around for a couple days, it seems a lot stronger. Also when I drink out of a cup that I had been drinking out of the day before and didn't finish the sample, then my legs can get a bit wobbly, whereas otherwise, I tend to feel very mild effects from large doses. I've read that saliva is believed to activate constituents in the aqueous prep (kavalactones or otherwise) that make it have a greater effect than when there is no saliva present. I think I believe it, although I cannot prove it to myself yet. Thus there might be ways of having stronger kava without increasing the flavokawain B/C levels.

I do think it would be nice if someone examined the different extraction techniques mentioned in this post (CO2, hot water, traditional prep, ethanol, lecithin) for kavalactone vs. FKB levels. Similar studies have partially overlapped this, but not systematically side by side comparisons all at once. One of the things are slightly soluble chemical constituents in a solution: there is an equilibrium of solute molecules entering the solution and leaving the solution. If you add another component that preferentially absorbs the moderately polar molecules (KLs and FKB), then you are creating a nonpolar environment for kavalactones to partition into, rather than back into the powder. Since the proportion of kavalactones to flavokawain is determined by their relative solubilities in water, you might be able to maintain that proportion and achieve a higher yield, without increasing the proportion of flavokawain. In this regard, lecithin may be safer than ethanol, since the lecithin micelles have a hydrophobic interior which allows for kavalactones to partition into from the aqueous environment. To state it more simply, ethanol or acetone help dissolve, while lecithin sponges up what is dissolved. I hope I didn't make the concept too confusing.
Click to expand...
I have experienced a lot of traditional prep and I have looked into the CO2 extraction because it's something that I have been interested in, unfortunately the equipment needed for CO2 extraction is extremely expensive best I can see from what I've researched is that it costs approximately between $3000 to $50,000 depending on the equipment chosen.
I have a coconut shell that I got from Bula kava house that I barely wash, it's got so much residue around it I always laugh every time I drink another batch from it because there's always dried up root on the bottom. I think I rinse it once a month.
 
Groggy

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
there is a headshop near my house and I know that they sell an extraction kit, a co2 kit that it's truly meant for marijuana however I've been thinking about investing in it because it's about 20 or 30 bucks just for s**** and giggles to see if it works
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top